Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

[Razorista]

When Steve provides a guide on how to trim tanks that doesn't require a few thousand and a week in Mexico is love to see it.

I do not remember if the Razor manual already includes that, or if you have to look for that information in the videos and Steve Martins site alone, but it is there in both of those.
I simply wrote an email to HP and Steve Martin in 2010 or 11, both answered conclusively enough to help me along (after a long time of me silently waiting without hope for an answer - since I did not dare to ask twice before a reply - perhaps that's why they answered, they did not know yet how annoying I can be...).

Victor: I think the "centerline" exercise would be useful, not to knock Razorista, but to facilitate general discussion of the many challenges of proper tank trim.

I concur, even if I will be the target in that.

Personally, I don't feel tanks need to be perfectly horizontal to be in trim, but they do need to neither extend above not below what would otherwise be the diver's profile and should not widen the profile by more than the width of the tank.

Also and even more strangely identical to what I would say (oh..., did so from the beginning, I think (sorry for being a bit sarcastic now)).
But anyway, the way you say it sounds better than mine.

With stages in "Steve" arrangement, then do hang below the body, so the definition adapts.

They do? or do you mean third and fourth stages?
http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/L... Side Mount System Fitting - Steve Martin.JPG (most linked to and stolen sidemount photo on the internet ;-))
'Bogaerthian' is quite a nice word, you should get used to it, I believe we will hear it more often in the future :blinking:

 

[djcheburashka]

I do not remember if the Razor manual already includes that, or if you have to look for that information in the videos and Steve Martins site alone, but it is there.
I simply wrote an email to HP and Steve Martin in 2010 or 11, both answered conclusively enough to help me along (after a long time of me silently waiting without hope for an answer - since I did not dare to ask twice before a reply - perhaps that's why they answered, they did not know yet how annoying I can be...).

Ok, see -- this is the problem!

You said Steve gives away instructions on how to trim tanks. Great! I said I don't think so but I'd like to see them. Now you say look at the manual or Steve Martin's site. You say "It is there," with certainty.

Well, it isn't. You're just wrong.

You may *think* its there, but you don't understand what trimming tanks out means, or how to do it. Except you *think* you do, so you say something that purports to be universal on a subject about which you know very little, and have very little to contribute.

So where are we? The original discussion is lost in a digression because of what you said. Now you probably want to spend three or four posts arguing about whether its really there. You don't know enough about it to have an informed opinion about whether its there or not. You just act like you do, butting-in and hijacking these discussions.

What you said is (a) wrong, (b) a waste of everyone's time, since its now three comments just to get past what you shouldn't have said in the first place, and (c) intensely annoying because it diverts threads and prevents them from being useful.

Here are two more examples of you doing the same thing:

Originally Posted by djcheburashka
Personally, I don't feel tanks need to be perfectly horizontal to be in trim, but they do need to neither extend above not below what would otherwise be the diver's profile and should not widen the profile by more than the width of the tank.

Also and even more strangely identical to what I would say (oh..., did so from the beginning, I think). [\QUOTE]

No.

Your tanks are generally *not* in trim according to my definition. The angle is far too great. The rear does stick up beyond your body. The head does extend below. To some extent this is masked -- you seem to be drastically overweighted in many of your photos, so your wing is beachballing, so it sticks up higher. I think you think that as long as the tank doesn't go above the top of the wing its fine. Wrong.

Originally Posted by djcheburashka
With stages in "Steve" arrangement, then do hang below the body, so the definition adapts.

They do? or do you mean third and fourth stages?
http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/Li...e%20Martin.JPG (most linked to and stolen sidemount photo on the internet ;-))
'Bogaerthian' is quite a nice word, you should get used to it, I believe we will hear it more often in the future

No.

In that photo the 1st and 2d stages are below Steve M's body. There was an extensive discussion about this in another thread, because none of us could figure out how someone could rig that up on a boat without making a total mess.

"Bogaerthian" was something people said during the period when Steve was (apparently) trying to pitch his gear to the DIR crowd, presumably because he wanted a deal with Halcyon. That boat has long since sailed. There are a dozen Razor clones out there now, hardly anybody is adopting a DIR-oriented approach to sidemount, and the DIR vendors have their own products to push.

There are, by the way, *reasons* that DIR and "bogaerthian" don't like each other very much. One of them is that when one is wearing stages under the body their long-hose is disinclined to cooperate with donation. Another is that head-mounting a light isn't very compatible with team diving. A third is that sidemount has much higher drag than backmount, which is a problem when a group of people are trying to keep pace with each other driving scooters. It is not an accident that many of SB's major accomplishments were on *solo* dives.

***

I really do *not* want to get into arguments about any of this with you. Part of the problem is that you divert threads with this crud.

 

[Razorista]

Ok, see -- this is the problem!

I don't think you see it.

You said Steve gives away instructions on how to trim tanks. Great! I said I don't think so but I'd like to see them.

You also said you neither needed nor appreciated my help. To be precise you 'knew' nobody would and should appreciate it.

Now you say look at the manual or Steve Martin's site.

Yes, I did:
http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/LiveContent/483/Images/Change from Twinset to Sidemount.jpg
http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/L...Razor Harness - Apeks Regualtor Package 2.jpg
http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/L... Side Mount System Fitting - Steve Martin.jpg
Sidemount Equipment (tips and tricks) - Steve Martin Sidemount Diving - Course Director PADI TecRec Side Mount Scuba Diving

You say "It is there," with certainty.

Yes... and don't you have eyes of your own?

Well, it isn't. You're just wrong.

Didn't we already have that before...
Well, proved you wrong again.

You may *think* its there, but you don't understand what trimming tanks out means, or how to do it. Except you *think* you do, so you say something that purports to be universal on a subject about which you know very little, and have very little to contribute.

Even if you dispute my expertise, do you also dispute Steve's?

... hijacking these discussions.

Actually I did answer on topic. You distracted!
You gave wrong information 'with authority' claiming to know the designers thoughts, I don't think I did likewise.

What you said is (a) wrong, (b) a waste of everyone's time, since its now three comments just to get past what you shouldn't have said in the first place, and (c) intensely annoying because it diverts threads and prevents them from being useful.

Isn't there an ignore funktion in this forum?
Use it and shut up!! (or get your act together, or something)

Here are two more examples of you doing the same thing:

I concur again, examples of the same thing!

Your tanks are generally *not* in trim according to my definition.

And your own definition is so important... because??

you seem to be drastically overweighted in many of your photos, so your wing is beachballing, so it sticks up higher.

You are so funny
The wing is empty at all times, without exception (it even was damaged for weeks without me finding out about it).
Next you will say you see my drysuit to be used for buoyancy.

I think you think that as long as the tank doesn't go above the top of the wing its fine. Wrong.

I do not think anything is wrong as long as the diver can use it to the purpose he desires.

In that photo the 1st and 2d stages are below Steve M's body.

How do you get that idea?
Is there something wrong with your eyes, or with the way you look at the picture?
You could draw a line touching both tanks undersides and his body.

There was an extensive discussion about this in another thread, because none of us could figure out how someone could rig that up on a boat without making a total mess.

Did not read that I think, but either you understood wrong, or that thread came to the wrong conclusions.

"Bogaerthian" was something people said during the period when Steve was (apparently) trying to pitch his gear to the DIR crowd, presumably because he wanted a deal with Halcyon.

Probably, but largely speculative I think.

Another is that head-mounting a light isn't very compatible with team diving.

I do not see why.
Technical dives from their point of view are done behind each other in a sidemount cave.
On other dives you do not need to use the helmet lights, or dismount them when needed, so they are not a problem for the group.
But I know that discussion too.

A third is that sidemount has much higher drag than backmount, which is a problem when a group of people are trying to keep pace with each other driving scooters.

Sidemount in general or 'old sidemount'?
I do not use scooters often, but even I know that can't be right or has to be worded differently.

It is not an accident that many of SB's major accomplishments were on *solo* dives.

I may be no accident that I think you are wrong again there.

He has HP along or Bill Philips and probably also dove with dozens of other divers on any of his expeditions.
I do not see how to manage most of those alone at all, with the tracks through jungle searching for cenote entries nobody mapped yet and the like.

I really do *not* want to get into arguments about any of this with you. Part of the problem is that you divert threads with this crud.

The diversions are yours and I am really getting fed up with it and your attitude by now...

 

[djcheburashka]

Yeah - this is the problem. You think you know things that you don't. Everyone else sees what's wrong. Six people have told you so far. How many people have to tell you before you start to get it?

Latest example 1: You don't see why headmounting a light is a problem for team diving? Ok. But nearly everyone else in the forum does see it. In other words, you are blissfully unaware of something the rest of us all understand.

Latest example 2: The picture of Steve. He has four tanks. Two are main gas tanks. You can tell because the sm bungee is wrapped around the valves. Two others hang underneath. Those two have regulators strapped on. Because they are STAGES!

Latest example 3: You don't understand that SM creates more drag for scootering that BM. Great. Well, those of us who do scooter understand that it does create more drag, and we understand why. And we really do not want to debate it with you. Or have to pop-in and correct something because you've hijacked another thread by spouting-off about something you know nothing about.

Ok? These are not things I want to debate with you. They are examples of things about which you are demonstrably clueless, but insist on endlessly continuously non-stop blathering uninformed opinions about.

Six people have told you so far. How many do you need to hear it from.

 

[Razorista]

Yeah - this is the problem. You think you know things that you don't. Everyone else sees what's wrong. Six people have told you so far. How many people have to tell you before you start to get it?

Where do you get this strange accusations from? And how do you think to know what is wrong and what is not?
I am also entitled to an opinion. Even a contrary one.

Latest example 1: You don't see why headmounting a light is a problem for team diving? Ok. But nearly everyone else in the forum does see it. In other words, you are blissfully unaware of something the rest of us all understand.

I only criticized your way of putting it, as you seem to have failed to realize.

Latest example 2: The picture of Steve. He has four tanks. Two are main gas tanks. You can tell because the sm bungee is wrapped around the valves. Two others hang underneath. Those two have regulators strapped on. Because they are STAGES!

All are stages, that's why I asked. Main sidemount tanks are also called stages very often (also on this forum).

Latest example 3: You don't understand that SM creates more drag for scootering that BM.

I do understand. I just say it is clearly wrong.

Great. Well, those of us who do scooter understand that it does create more drag, and we understand why. And we really do not want to debate it with you. Or have to pop-in and correct something because you've hijacked another thread by spouting-off about something you know nothing about.

In my opinion this is starting to sound like a much better option than listening to you.

Ok? These are not things I want to debate with you.

Likewise, why are you doing it constantly now?
If it had some substance it might even be interesting, but it still doesn't and isn't.

They are examples of things about which you are demonstrably clueless, but insist on endlessly continuously non-stop blathering uninformed opinions about.

Said the one who knows everything. I know, I know...*sigh*

Six people have told you so far. How many do you need to hear it from.

Don't worry, I don't count.

 

[djcheburashka]

You will just go on forever. It will never end. I will not bother responding to your comments further except to note your demonstrated ignorance so no one else is misled.

 

[Razorista]

And I will just ignore your superiority complex and laugh at you, ok?

I really do not understand your problem, but it is not helping anyone to come to new ideas, not even you.

You know you are the one who could not back up any of your unfounded accusations and theories yet, don't you?
But top it with some more of those if you have to, I just do not see whom you are helping with it or what your goal could be alternatively.

 

[MSargeant]

Can this thread get locked/deleted or something? This is just lowering further and further into tedium.

 

[djcheburashka]

Agreed

 

[victorzamora]

So, Razorista.....I'm honestly sick of your responses. You skip any sort of discussion at all and just go back to you not caring or not believing in proper technique. This is one still from literally every "clip" in your Sidemount Spass video except for one or two where the angle wouldn't allow me to draw a line for you. Either way, every single clip showed poor technique. Here they are. First picture, tails far too high. Second picture, tails are less bad but still way out of trim. I wanted to point out how far forward your valves are here. Too far forward. Third picture, tail way too high. Fourth picture, tail way too high. It shows clearly the tank being above you. Fifth picture, shows that the one time your tank is flat it IS, in fact, hanging below your body. Poor technique, even by your own admission (you specifically said tanks hanging below you was bad). Final picture shows your valves being WAY too far forwards. With your valves being in front of your shoulder, your tanks will never be flat. I mean, simply think about it. With your valves below you, you can't keep your tanks flat and not underneath you.