Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

[djcheburashka]

It's not the pouch, it's an smb in a bag that's why it floats.

And you're not maintaining tank trim when the tanks are buoyant. There are a slew of images in the videos with the bank of the tank sticking way up.

 

[Razorista]

There are a slew of images in the videos with the bank of the tank sticking way up.

Will have to watch that in the future.
Its just so easy to get lazy with small tanks on after work dives...:blush:
However, you can also easily see in several scenes that I can do better if I care to.

---------- Post added August 9th, 2014 at 12:14 AM ----------

It's not the pouch, it's an smb in a bag that's why it floats.

Ah, now I see.
Same problem. It's something I do not like that much about clipping off equipment down there (or up there?) and also a reason I do not mind the wing to bulge a little bit either (as long as it's not too much) - I would not like to get my streamlined wing through a restriction and then get stuck on the GoPro clipped to the B-ring.

But it is also a nuisance that the pouch itself floats a bit sometimes or gets blown upwards by bubbles - not a problem, but I constantly roll my eyes when it drops down on the legs again and again each dive.

 

[victorzamora]

Razorista, I've thought about this a bit over the weekend and I really do have to say.....not caring about your tank trim or your bulgy wing is a little sad. I take pride in my diving, and sidemount tank trim is a large part of that. It's really not a big deal (especially if you're doing simple rec ow dives)......but in my opinion you had might as well not be diving sidemount if you're going to be so careless with your gear configuration. Also, I would certainly refrain from posting ANY advice if I had such low standards for my gear setup. I know it's picky and a little bit vain, but trim and config is what separates a good sidemount diver from a stage-slinger.

On Youtube, the "Razorista" channel has a lot of videos of very poorly executed sidemount. I'm not sure who you are in any of the videos, or if you're in them, but they're certainly not what I'd consider taking ANY advice or opinion from.

I know that sounded grumpy, but please understand I didn't mean it to be offensive. I'm saying this from a purely logical perspective. You are, of course, free to continue diving and posting as you please (it doesn't bother me a bit)......but do so with the realization that hooking tanks up is easy, but achieving perfect trim is what most people seek. Getting lazy with tanks is complacency, and that's no good in any of life's endeavors....recreational or professional.

 

[Razorista]

I find it irritating that discussions concerning the flaws and merits of certain equipment have to be backed by anything but explanation. Seems to be the same anywhere divers meet on the internet.
I decided some time ago that I will stop fearing criticism when it concerns diving.

...channel has a lot of videos of very poorly executed sidemount.

It contains many sidemount beginners during their first or second dive, so do not bash them to much (I am mostly astonished at what some can do on their first tryout dive with completely new equipment).
Also some of my own beginnings and failures, you can criticize those as much as you like.
I am easy to distinguish by wearing the Razor and small tanks (and early on 10 liter steels most of the time). There are also other Razor divers, but never with 7l or 8l - I also use 80cft myself in some of course. My own Apeks regulators are still new and I only had about a hundred dives with them, I have been using different types of Mares Protons before and while most of the videos where made.

Perhaps I can find out something here about how to improve myself while I am at it.

I'm not sure who you are in any of the videos, or if you're in them,

There is one video I linked to directly containing a collection of snippets where others had a camera with them or shots I made myself.
And I do not see anything 'poorly executed' there - can you give one example at least?

but they're certainly not what I'd consider taking ANY advice or opinion from.

I certainly have no idea what one has to do with the other.
But if you do not want to take my advice, don't. I do not remember giving any to you directly anyway, or you asking something I could have answered.

but do so with the realization that hooking tanks up is easy, but achieving perfect trim is what most people seek.

I do not see that most people try for perfect trim at all. Most seem to be satisfied as long as it works at all.
Those who really try for perfect trim mostly have it. But not without doing something or other a few times in the dive tehy might also be lazy about sometimes.
I am happy most times to have any video showing me at all and most are made to show something to me after a dive some other diver noticed.

Getting lazy with tanks is complacency, and that's no good in any of life's endeavors....recreational or professional.

I am not anyone who wants to present himself on the internet or sell anything to anybody and I do not have a personal camera diver.
However, that also means I do not have to be self-conscious like most and try to present some idealized persona.

I just try to sometimes explain that sidemount as a whole and especially using a Razor is not as hard as everybody makes it out to be.
There are few situations where perfect trim really makes a difference (compared to fairly good trim), but it is fairly easy to achieve, if you put some work into it or get the right training.

Since I have let this get personal, please try to tell me a few reasons and places you see anything poorly executed in this video (because that's the only one I cut explicitly for sidemount scenes showing mostly myself and I do not see anything of the sort in there):
Sidemount Spass - YouTube
I do not even see badly trimmed tanks anywhere, at some times it's not absolutely perfect, but as I said I mostly get those videos when someone notices something off, or we arranged before to take a shot at a certain time or signal to find out about something or demonstrate it.
I am admittedly not a very talented diver, but I am amazed most of the time at what is possible anyway and in my opinion that video has a lot of scenes I could be rightfully proud of (I am not, I have to admit).

Again: I my opinion my personal skill and dedication sometimes leaves a lot to be desired.
It shows in some of my video and I am not proud of that.
But in my opinion those videos also show clearly that a diver even with lacking talent can get some fairly impressive sidemounting done consistently and with a very fast progress from beginner to whatever I might be in a few years.

 

[djcheburashka]

Yeah we all get at this point that you don't understand what we've been trying to tell you... How many people do you need to hear it from, because we're up to I think six at this point.

The point isn't to explain all of this to you--it's for you to stop giving other people advice about how to do something you not only don't do, but don't care to do and don't recognize when you see it.

Sorry, no reason for you to stop enjoying yourself in the water, doesn't make you a bad person, but you're just not in a position to be giving anyone else advice on how to dive.

 

[Razorista]

Yeah, I also see my advice is not wanted here that much.

What I do not see is why I am getting flamed suddenly:
I do not give advice to anyone on how to dive at all!

But I thought I could easily answer the question that started this thread:
Whether the changes from Razor 2 to 2.1 warrant waiting (they don't) and if the SMS75 could be an alternative if waiting was the only other option (it can't, too different and waiting isn't the only option).

Now that you got us to me having to defend myself personally very very far from the topic, you should at least be able to point out what you are hinting at precisely. You can do that in a private message if you like, but you do not have to, I don't mind.

---------- Post added August 11th, 2014 at 08:30 PM ----------

Also I am not looking for any advice here.
But if you tell me those videos let me look incompetent I would like to know why and how.

You could also easily show what you mean with your own superior examples.

Do not take this the wrong way please, but compared to the only under water picture I saw posted in this thread not by myself I do not see a reason to be ashamed of anything.

I am just trying to make up my mind if I should leave, or should just ignore you.

 

[victorzamora]

I find it irritating that discussions concerning the flaws and merits of certain equipment have to be backed by anything but explanation. Seems to be the same anywhere divers meet on the internet.
I decided some time ago that I will stop fearing criticism when it concerns diving.

A person without sufficient care to properly sidemount shouldn't be talking about the flaws and merits of sidemount systems. The Razor is capable of flawless sidemount technique with enough good effort being put in to it. Others are capable of the same, with a few mods. However, a person that doesn't care about maintaining proper tank trim shouldn't discuss tank trim. You do not exhibit proper tank trim.....you shouldn't be talking about the merits or flaws either way, because you seem to simply not be there yet in your diving. Maybe from the perspective of a person currently figuring it out, but you phrase your statements as absolutes, which positions you in a frame of experience and expertise.

It contains many sidemount beginners during their first or second dive, so do not bash them to much (I am mostly astonished at what some can do on their first tryout dive with completely new equipment).
Also some of my own beginnings and failures, you can criticize those as much as you like.
I am easy to distinguish by wearing the Razor and small tanks (and early on 10 liter steels most of the time). There are also other Razor divers, but never with 7l or 8l - I also use 80cft myself in some of course. My own Apeks regulators are still new and I only had about a hundred dives with them, I have been using different types of Mares Protons before and while most of the videos where made.

Perhaps I can find out something here about how to improve myself while I am at it.

I don't mean to bash or criticize anyone in any of the videos, especially not specifically. That's not what this thread is for. However, based on watching your videos, I concluded that your technique was lacking. That was a general, overarching statement and not meant as a "bash" but as a reference that maybe everything you say isn't gospel, but the words of someone in the process of achieving proper technique.

I certainly have no idea what one has to do with the other.
But if you do not want to take my advice, don't. I do not remember giving any to you directly anyway, or you asking something I could have answered.

They are fully related. Why take advice from someone with poor technique? Why would someone want that to be his/her foundation? Why would someone want to try something on my system if it proved to work poorly on yours?

I do not see that most people try for perfect trim at all. Most seem to be satisfied as long as it works at all.
Those who really try for perfect trim mostly have it. But not without doing something or other a few times in the dive tehy might also be lazy about sometimes.
I am happy most times to have any video showing me at all and most are made to show something to me after a dive some other diver noticed.

That's not true. People that try for perfect trim try for it, not all achieve it. You said yourself it's not as easy as a book and that one needs proper training. It's clearly not that easy if one needs training to accomplish it. Laziness is complacency, and is not to be allowed in any diving or any other endeavor.

I am not anyone who wants to present himself on the internet or sell anything to anybody and I do not have a personal camera diver.
However, that also means I do not have to be self-conscious like most and try to present some idealized persona.

You DO, in fact, present yourself on the internet, and ARE, in fact, selling the Razor to people on the internet.....even if you weren't a part of the financial transaction, you're part of the sale. You're selling people on an idea that you don't seem to have achieved.

I just try to sometimes explain that sidemount as a whole and especially using a Razor is not as hard as everybody makes it out to be.
There are few situations where perfect trim really makes a difference (compared to fairly good trim), but it is fairly easy to achieve, if you put some work into it or get the right training.

Proper sidemount takes work. Having pride in your sidemount takes work. It's not easy. It's why you take a class. However, clipping some bottles off to yourself is a piece of cake. Doing it satisfactorily is easy if your standards are set low enough.

Since I have let this get personal, please try to tell me a few reasons and places you see anything poorly executed in this video (because that's the only one I cut explicitly for sidemount scenes showing mostly myself and I do not see anything of the sort in there):
Sidemount Spass - YouTube
I do not even see badly trimmed tanks anywhere, at some times it's not absolutely perfect, but as I said I mostly get those videos when someone notices something off, or we arranged before to take a shot at a certain time or signal to find out about something or demonstrate it.
I am admittedly not a very talented diver, but I am amazed most of the time at what is possible anyway and in my opinion that video has a lot of scenes I could be rightfully proud of (I am not, I have to admit).

Your body posture and trim seems decent the whole time, but your tanks are badly trimmed in literally EVERY shot of "Sidemount Spass." Your valves are far too far forwards, bringing your necks down and kicking your tails far too high. In one shot, your tank is finally flat.....but it's 8-12cm lower than it should be. If you really don't think so, I can start taking screen shots and adding centerlines for your tanks as-is and as-should. Like I said earlier, however, I really had no intention on bashing or being grumpy. I try my hardest to not bash poor technique, as long as it's being worked on. What deserves bashing, however, is not caring. That is lazy, sloppy, and complacent. That is an unhealthy and even dangerous attitude.

Again: I my opinion my personal skill and dedication sometimes leaves a lot to be desired.
It shows in some of my video and I am not proud of that.
But in my opinion those videos also show clearly that a diver even with lacking talent can get some fairly impressive sidemounting done consistently and with a very fast progress from beginner to whatever I might be in a few years.

If it took a few years to go from beginner to you current results, I would certainly be seeking a refund on initial training or questioning how I let my initial (good?) training slip. If you're saying your skills and dedication leave a lot to be desired, how can you be on here saying how great of results you've been achieving? It simply doesn't jive, at all.

TRYING to get back to the original post, the SMS75 and Razor have different purposes....big steels vs neutral tanks. However, only one can accomplish both.

 

[djcheburashka]

Just a short list of the things that have to be coordinated on a razor to get tanks in trim; not that these have to be individually "right" or "wrong" but it's the interaction among that's that determines tank trim:

Position of the waist strap
Position of the d-ring along the waist strap
Choice of sm boltsnap and attachment
Vertical position of sm boltsnap on tank
Rotation of boltsnap relative to valve
Sm bungee length & tension
Height of DSP
Distance from DSP to triglide
Position of chest d-rings

And the diver doesn't just have to find a combination that works. They have to find a combination that works with tanks that may be negatively buoyant, may be neutral, may be positive, and have at least three different potential diameters. (Plus stages.)

It is not easy! People (me included) struggle with this for ages. That's why authoritative advice (which you seemed to be giving) is such a big deal---and why it's such a big deal to find out that you aren't in a position to be giving authoritative advice at all.

 

[Razorista]

...but you phrase your statements as absolutes, which positions you in a frame of experience and expertise.

This could perhaps have something to do with me not being native to this language? Just asking?

if it proved to work poorly on yours?

Then you should all be diving the Razor, because it has the most showy videos.
Not that Steve isn't that good, but HP seems to be excellent at the cutting board, camera and lights as well.

I am actually commended constantly on the way I dive by backmounting and sidemounting dive partners and what I can do with the Razor.
But from my point of view too those people just do not know better.

That's not true. People that try for perfect trim try for it, not all achieve it.

I saw some people take some weeks, but most where quite astoundingly fast to get to the point you could call 'ok'.
But perfect this is perhaps a bit to critical of most sidemount divers and their requirements, don't you think?

You said yourself it's not as easy as a book and that one needs proper training. It's clearly not that easy if one needs training to accomplish it.

Saw one diver at least in the last few years who is using this Hollis SMS100 with more skill without any training of his own than most with training. Another in a Razor, who even gave up on it because backmount is a personal challenge he wanted to continue after healing a lifting related injury sidemounting, some get all the skills for free it seems sometimes.

Laziness is complacency, and is not to be allowed in any diving or any other endeavor.

Lazyness can also be caused by boredom, etc...
Also by having gotten over the nitpicking phase at last.

You DO, in fact, present yourself on the internet, and ARE, in fact, selling the Razor to people on the internet.....even if you weren't a part of the financial transaction, you're part of the sale. You're selling people on an idea that you don't seem to have achieved.

Yes, and I am part of a great conspiracy of incompetent divers trying to sell Razors to everyone to stop the world from learning about the glory of true sidemount systems. Oops, you caught me
What's your own agenda, by the way?

Proper sidemount takes work.

Define 'proper' and the amount of work required please.

Having pride in your sidemount takes work.

Pride only blinds to personal failures. Perhaps this is happening to me at the moment I take pride in not being proud of anything though

It's not easy. It's why you take a class. However, clipping some bottles off to yourself is a piece of cake. Doing it satisfactorily is easy if your standards are set low enough.

That much sadly is a very true statement (or happily, depends on perspective).

Your body posture and trim seems decent the whole time,

Thanks... I think...

but your tanks are badly trimmed in literally EVERY shot of "Sidemount Spass."

?? ...
Don't see it...

Your valves are far too far forwards,

Have been criticized about that before, but the first stages are in exactly the position shown in Steve Martin demonstration pictures, so I do not know...

bringing your necks down and kicking your tails far too high.

Don't think so. There are a few scenes where I could have clipped into the other D-ring, but that's my own decision to make, isn't it?
It has (next to) nothing to do with overall trim and effectiveness of the system.

In one shot, your tank is finally flat.....but it's 8-12cm lower than it should be.

Not under my body in any frame, I think. That's all that is required.

If you really don't think so, I can start taking screen shots and adding centerlines for your tanks as-is and as-should.

Do you really do that for every video you make of yourself?
Why not show that first?

But please, 'as-should' away.
I might not understand that way though, as I do not think that it matters in any frame I have of my own videos.

Like I said earlier, however, I really had no intention on bashing or being grumpy. I try my hardest to not bash poor technique, as long as it's being worked on.

Bash away, I do not mind (much).

What deserves bashing, however, is not caring. That is lazy, sloppy, and complacent. That is an unhealthy and even dangerous attitude.

Oh, I do care. But it depends very much on the individual situation how much I care.

If it took a few years to go from beginner to you current results,

From my point of view it was not much different since the first dive.
Had to figure out a lot of things, but that was only details.
Looked horrible sometimes for a while, better at other times, but looks don't count at all.

...I would certainly be seeking a refund on initial training or questioning how I let my initial (good?) training slip.

The training helped a lot.
After some time I started to get more realistic about the relationship between things required and optional for every days dives.

The way I see it formal training gives me the opportunity and perspective to decide what I need for myself.

If you're saying your skills and dedication leave a lot to be desired, how can you be on here saying how great of results you've been achieving?

I did not meet many people locally who could match with effort what I have been doing for fun for years if they tried.
Still not as good as others, but sufficient (and also hard to improve then).

It simply doesn't jive, at all.

I do not like to compare divers on those terms, at all.

TRYING to get back to the original post, the SMS75 and Razor have different purposes....big steels vs neutral tanks. However, only one can accomplish both.

Yes, the Razor, as buttplates are uncomfortable with neutral tanks... Just kidding they both work.
(that's certainly only my opinion, but it is not an opinion nobody shares)

---------- Post added August 11th, 2014 at 09:37 PM ----------

...That's why authoritative advice (which you seemed to be giving) is such a big deal---and why it's such a big deal to find out that you aren't in a position to be giving authoritative advice at all.

Perhaps it would help if people just did what Steve recommended (and openly offers to everyone for free for a large part) and talked about that instead of personal skill of lesser divers, me perhaps lesser than all of you, but you certainly not comparable to some others as well.

 

[djcheburashka]

When Steve provides a guide on how to trim tanks that doesn't require a few thousand and a week in Mexico is love to see it.

Victor: I think the "centerline" exercise would be useful, not to knock Razorista, but to facilitate general discussion of the many challenges of proper tank trim.

Personally, I don't feel tanks need to be perfectly horizontal to be in trim, but they do need to neither extend above not below what would otherwise be the diver's profile and should not widen the profile by more than the width of the tank.

With stages in "Steve" arrangement, then do hang below the body, so the definition adapts.