Private label production regulators

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Sure, I have used SAN O SUB regs (1st stages mainly - 300 bar units) in our commercial dive operation for years, they are really bullet proof, ideal for a working enviroment.

I know they (SAN O SUB) made virtually all the piston regs for the company Beuchat some years back, but they have since moved their production, its quite possible they made units for Scuba Pro as well, but I cant say for sure.

The advantage of the Italian manufacturers for OEM units (for customers like us) is they dont have such a big "minimum" quantity requirement, San O Sub will happily manufacture 100 units, whereas the Asian manufacturers have really big minimum quantity requirements, usually in the region of 500 odd units or $10,000.00 minimum order value.

 

[DRsharky]

As cars, personal computers, etc., dive computers or their parts are made in Taiwan, China or elsewhere where the labor is cheap. Then they are assembled by known company either there or in US. So basically you get the same parts assembled under a different name with a different price tag on it. You might get and well know brand with many problems or no name brand that is excellent.

 

[cave_diver]

Companies in Taiwan require between 200 and 500 units to start a "private label" production. I have spoken to a Chinese company which requires between 500 and 1.000 units per annum. However, Chinese pricing starts at around US-$30 per unit (1st and 2nd, both piston and diaphragm). Companies in Taiwan charge US-$ 80 upwards per unit. None of these companies carry any liability insurance valid in the US, which will add around $25.000 to your costs.

Do you know what San O Sub charges on a per unit base? Most European companies do carry liability insurance. However, the Euro exchange rate does not really encourage purchases in Europe at the moment.

 

[Hoosier]

Companies in Taiwan require between 200 and 500 units to start a "private label" production. I have spoken to a Chinese company which requires between 500 and 1.000 units per annum. However, Chinese pricing starts at around US-$30 per unit (1st and 2nd, both piston and diaphragm). Companies in Taiwan charge US-$ 80 upwards per unit.

Can you see any quality difference between Chinese and Taiwanes production?

None of these companies carry any liability insurance valid in the US, which will add around $25.000 to your costs.

For your reference, when U.S company exports the item to the foreign countries, their liability coverage doesn't applied to the export market, either. Even though there are same insurance companies (mostly branch) located in the export market, U.S. insurance coverage isn't applied and no vise versa.

It is the importing companies' responsibility, NOT the foreign manufactures unless the manufacture decides to sell it directly to the customer in U.S. market.

You can claim the quality in the process of importing based on NY commercial law, but it is totally differeent with a liability coverage.


Just my 2 bar.

 

[cave_diver]

Can you see any quality difference between Chinese and Taiwanes production?







For your reference, when U.S company exports the item to the foreign countries, their liability coverage doesn't applied to the export market, either. Even though there are same insurance companies (mostly branch) located in the export market, U.S. insurance coverage isn't applied and no vise versa.

It is the importing companies' responsibility, NOT the foreign manufactures unless the manufacture decides to sell it directly to the customer in U.S. market.

You can claim the quality in the process of importing based on NY commercial law, but it is totally differeent with a liability coverage.




Just my 2 bar.

Quality difference between China and Taiwan – that’s really a tough question. I think you have good and not so good companies in each country. In my opinion, Taiwan acts more as a consolidator. They produce the more “complicated” gear (i.e. regulators, BCD’s) and buy a lot of the easier to manufacture gear in China or Thailand (i.e. fins masks and snorkels, some neoprene products). Furthermore, they speak English and have more of a western culture. Personally, I feel more secure dealing with Taiwan than with China.

In regards to liability insurance, your comment is not 100 percent correct. Many European companies can produce a “Certificate of Insurance” which is valid in the US. This means basically that they deal with an insurance company over there that has a representative or an office in the US so that a claim can be filed here. Therefore, the importer is not always liable to buy expensive coverage.

 

[Hoosier]

Quality difference between China and Taiwan – that’s really a tough question. I think you have good and not so good companies in each country. In my opinion, Taiwan acts more as a consolidator. They produce the more “complicated” gear (i.e. regulators, BCD’s) and buy a lot of the easier to manufacture gear in China or Thailand (i.e. fins masks and snorkels, some neoprene products). Furthermore, they speak English and have more of a western culture. Personally, I feel more secure dealing with Taiwan than with China.

Thanks for your reply on this...

In regards to liability insurance, your comment is not 100 percent correct. Many European companies can produce a “Certificate of Insurance” which is valid in the US. This means basically that they deal with an insurance company over there that has a representative or an office in the US so that a claim can be filed here. Therefore, the importer is not always liable to buy expensive coverage.

First of all, the scuba equipment is categorized in the "mandatory standard"?
Even the goods that meets the "Mandatory standard" doesn't require a proof of the liability insurance for exporting and importing procedure. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Second, as I know, a "Certificate of insurance" isn't requirement to the exporting party as well. That is, this is only for between exporter and importer to save their asses against the end users, customers in the importing market. You aren't talking about an insurance to cover the loss or damage of goods during the transportation, are you? This CIF (cost, insurance, and freight) can be the exporter's responsibility.

Sure, you can have any coverage if you PUT A SPECIAL CLAUSE (apply it to other countries) IN YOUR INSURANCE COVERAGE. My point is that your insurance in U.S. doesn't cover any liability automatically in other couriers, either.

Does your auto mobile liability coverage cover a car accident in China?
Does your health insurance coverage cover your medical bill in China?

Might be, but mostly NOT.....


DAN does it because the international coverage is in written on their policy, but it is also depending on the location (hospital) in a foreign world. You have to pay everything with your own cash first and reimburse it later.


Are EU companies asking the same competitive price, $30~$80 per regulator like China and Taiwan?

$30 + $25,000/500 ($50) = $80
$80 + $25,000/500 ($50) = $130

If not, there is no point to complain a liability insurance cost in US by the importer.

You might be able to complain about the convenient factor because EU exporters dealt with all liability insurance stuff in advance for the importers. But, you just pay it in advance to EU exporters instead of paying it later with importing from China.

Just my 2 bar.

 

[cave_diver]

First of all, the scuba equipment is categorized in the "mandatory standard"?
Even the goods that meets the "Mandatory standard" doesn't require a proof of the liability insurance for exporting and importing procedure. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Second, as I know, a "Certificate of insurance" isn't requirement to the exporting party as well. That is, this is only for between exporter and importer to save their asses against the end users, customers in the importing market. You aren't talking about an insurance to cover the loss or damage of goods during the transportation, are you? This CIF (cost, insurance, and freight) can be the exporter's responsibility.

Sure, you can have any coverage if you PUT A SPECIAL CLAUSE (apply it to other countries) IN YOUR INSURANCE COVERAGE. My point is that your insurance in U.S. doesn't cover any liability automatically in other couriers, either.

Does your auto mobile liability coverage cover a car accident in China?
Does your health insurance coverage cover your medical bill in China?

Might be, but mostly NOT.....


DAN does it because the international coverage is in written on their policy, but it is also depending on the location (hospital) in a foreign world. You have to pay everything with your own cash first and reimburse it later.


Are EU companies asking the same competitive price, $30~$80 per regulator like China and Taiwan?

$30 + $25,000/500 ($50) = $80
$80 + $25,000/500 ($50) = $130

If not, there is no point to complain a liability insurance cost in US by the importer.

You might be able to complain about the convenient factor because EU exporters dealt with all liability insurance stuff in advance for the importers. But, you just pay it in advance to EU exporters instead of paying it later with importing from China.

Just my 2 bar.

I basically concur with your las statement.

European products are most likely more expensive, but there are many reasons for it - higher labor costs, the current exchange rate, clear-cut trademarks, etc.

I feel it is almost impossible to determine which portion of their asking price is related to product liability insurance, if any. In the end, some importers may feel it is just more convenient to buy from a European company.

Another point has not been discussed yet - trademarks. Based on my experience, this is almost not an issue if you are dealing with a European company. In Asia, and especially in China, dozens of companies offer you to back-engineer almost any product if you send them a sample. If you have a reliable partner, they will tell you that there is a trademark issue on certain items, for example HID lights. They recommend that you do not import them into the US.

 

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Companies in Taiwan require between 200 and 500 units to start a "private label" production. I have spoken to a Chinese company which requires between 500 and 1.000 units per annum. However, Chinese pricing starts at around US-$30 per unit (1st and 2nd, both piston and diaphragm). Companies in Taiwan charge US-$ 80 upwards per unit. None of these companies carry any liability insurance valid in the US, which will add around $25.000 to your costs.

Do you know what San O Sub charges on a per unit base? Most European companies do carry liability insurance. However, the Euro exchange rate does not really encourage purchases in Europe at the moment.

Yes, sure, we only buy the basic piston 1st stage and the balanced diaghram 300 bar unit 1 st stage so I can only comment on those two - San O Sub charges around 27 euro for a basic piston drive reg for quantities less than or up too 100 units and around 40 euro for the 300 bar balanced diaghram unit.

They do manufacture a 230 bar balanced diaghram unit which will probably slot in the middle somewhere, but I dont buy it so not sure.

The 300 bar unit is their most expensive for obvious reasons.

I am fairly sure a bigger quantity discount could be discussed, but for us 100 units at a time is adequate.

I agree with you that the price is somewhat more expensive than the Asian competitors due to more expensive labour and possibly things like insurance (I am not sure on that issue) but the quantities the Asian companies require, dos not really make it viable for us, we prefer to buy three or four times a season a smaller quantity rather than buy an entire seasons stock once off.

Unfortunately for that convenience, we do pay a small premium, but on the plus side the Italian companies are easy to do business with, they speak english, their quality is always perfect, they understand exportation laws and abide by them, and their lead times are quite a bit shorter, usually around, but sometimes less than 4 weeks.

China and Taiwan on the other hand can have 8 weeks or more lead time.

On trademarks, Yes, you are right, never an issue out of Europe, out of the East, my experiance is that its a case of "Let the buyer beware" - all round I feel more comfortable dealing in Europe, but thats just personal.

 

[5615mike]

Quality difference between China and Taiwan – that’s really a tough question. I think you have good and not so good companies in each country. In my opinion, Taiwan acts more as a consolidator. They produce the more “complicated” gear (i.e. regulators, BCD’s) and buy a lot of the easier to manufacture gear in China or Thailand (i.e. fins masks and snorkels, some neoprene products). Furthermore, they speak English and have more of a western culture. Personally, I feel more secure dealing with Taiwan than with China.

In regards to liability insurance, your comment is not 100 percent correct. Many European companies can produce a “Certificate of Insurance” which is valid in the US. This means basically that they deal with an insurance company over there that has a representative or an office in the US so that a claim can be filed here. Therefore, the importer is not always liable to buy expensive coverage.

Most of what your going to see as respects Liability Insurance, technically called "Product Liability", for something such as dive equipment will be underwritten by Lloyds of London. They provide a certificate of insurance but no certificate is worth the paper its written on unless its backed by a legit carrier or sydicate out of Llyods. I have seen a number of them written by syndicates that are not worth cheese since the coverage provided is nothing more than just providing a certificate of coverge. These certificates do not show the limitations of the policy. As respects being "valid" in US.......well, now thats a different story all together. When your dealing with Excess and Surplus Lines carriers and London Syndicates, unless you know who they are you really dont know who your dealing with or whether they will be around tomorrow or not. Most people dont understand how Lloyds really works. A representative in US is nothing more than an Excess and Surplus lines Broker who is licensed to sell such policies. They can not sell diretly to end user. They sell the policy to a "Retail" agent who in turn sells it to the end user.

As far as liability. If an imported product is sold in US and the mfg. is not or will not respond to a suit brought in the US, then the Importer of that product is legally liable for its liability. If that product is altered in any way or repackaged or relabelled, well, then that importer just became a mfger in the eyes of the law.

I am very interested in this private label discussion for personal reasons for considering some new regs. IMO private label products, if done well, are most likely better than what is being offered by the major players and certainly at a more economical price to us divers.

I have always used Aqualung regs and love them but the higher end regs can get pricey.

 

[cave_diver]

I am very interested in this private label discussion for personal reasons for considering some new regs. IMO private label products, if done well, are most likely better than what is being offered by the major players and certainly at a more economical price to us divers.

Private label products can be better, but not always. Sometimes, large manufacturers “reserve” good products for themselves, which means they effectively prohibit other companies to sell it under their own label by ordering large quantities. Sherwood, for example, is ordering a regulator from a manufacturer in California in quantities of 5.000 plus per year. The manufacturer will only consider another label if somebody would order the same or a higher quantity. Poseidon buys large quantities of BCD’s from Taiwan and has an exclusive agreement with the manufacturer so nobody else can buy it for the time being. If a better product becomes available, the old one may be released to “smaller labels”.