Planning to go to Belize? Unsafe practices you should know know about addressed

[DevonDiver]

P.S.: Remember that for some of these people, money = food, clothing & shelter for they & their families. Doesn't seem so petty when viewed that way.

Ok, they are poor. So we can excuse them jeopardizing other human lives in order to ensure their livelihood.

Why not just cut out the shenanigans and say it's acceptable for them to fund their livelihood whilst jeopardizing other human lives by pushing a revolver in a tourist's face and taking their wallet?

I've lived in 3rd world countries for the last 7 years. Safety violations are rarely unavoidable, or socially generated... they mostly stem from not giving a damn...or lack of foresight. What corrects them is oversight and external regulation - which is something PADI could effect an ethical policy on (and duplicitous, encourages divers to believe they do...)

 

[flots am]

Please identify the violations identified in these agreements when operators take certified divers beyond recommended limits.

This one would do.

9. I understand and agree that PADI Membership is granted at the sole discretion of PADI, based upon its unilateral determination of several
criteria including, but not limited to, whether acceptance and continuation of any membership is in the best interest of PADI. Satisfaction of
minimum requirements does not guarantee membership. PADI Membership, at any level, may be revoked by PADI, at its sole discretion, at
any time

 

[Diver0001]

John, the following is straight out of the standards. It's the code of conduct that every PADI member promises to uphold. You don't even need to to read past point #1 to get a red flag with respect to taking unqualified divers on guided dives well beyond the recommended limits of their training.

As a PADI Professional, you enjoy a rewarding role – teaching
and introducing others to scuba diving. You have the chance to
change lives for the better and to experience things most humans
will never have the opportunity to enjoy. With this ability comes
a very important obligation to your students, clients and all
those who come to you to be taught or led underwater: You are
responsible for the safety of others.

As a PADI Member, you agree to the following:
1. Put the safety of diving clients and students as your
first priority and responsibility. In doing so, abide by
the requirements and intent of PADI Standards and
Procedures in the PADI Instructor Manual, PADI’s
Guide to Teaching, Training Bulletin and other updates
while applying your best judgment during the PADI
courses and programs you conduct.

Thta's point #1. There are 18 additional points, some of which also raise red flags in this case and it concludes by saying:

If you breach the Code of Practice, your PADI
Membership is at risk.

As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty clear. If someone would need to look for loopholes in that then they're already off on a tangent.

R..

 

[drrich2]

Why not just cut out the shenanigans and say it's acceptable for them to fund their livelihood whilst jeopardizing other human lives by pushing a revolver in a tourist's face and taking their wallet?

If people are diving the Blue Hole at gunpoint, that's a different story.

Ok, they are poor. So we can excuse them jeopardizing other human lives in order to ensure their livelihood.

This cuts to the heart of the issue in a way. Who is jeopardizing the diver; the op. who runs the boat out and sends a guide down, or the certified diver diving beyond his/her competency? I suspect the answer is not always exactly the same on every trip.

Richard.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

PADI is not the only agency with such language. I have S&P's for eight agencies thanks to some great people on here who were kind enough to provide them and my own research. All have some statements about following accepted safe practices and conducting oneself accordingly ANY time divers are undet their care or even when they are not. We are supposed to be role models. Is violating practices and guiding divers beyond their recommended limits role model behavior? And what about our own morals and ethics? Should those also not come into play and those who.have ethics and morals that allow them to risk others lives be kicked out? If not why not?
I brought up Cozumel and Grand Cayman. Cozumel cowboys killed and injured themselves while risking others lives by denying resources to those who might have needed them for an actual accident. Yet there were no cries of outrage or action taken even on such a pitiful level as this by PADI against those PADI professionals. In Grand Cayman a pro knowingly took a new diver on his second post OW cert dive on a planned 100 ft wall dive. The guy died aftef reaching 342ft and doing a 2 minute ascent from 302 according to his computer.
What warnings did they send out then? Not a damn thing. Why don't the good instructors from every agency whose peers did these things demand answers and action.
You have a great opportunity to do that now if you're going to DEMA. And ask your reps.
Otherwise the next time someone dies due to this how can you say you don't share some of the blame?

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

PADI is not the only agency with such language. I have S&P's for eight agencies thanks to some great people on here who were kind enough to provide them and my own research. All have some statements about following accepted safe practices and conducting oneself accordingly ANY time divers are undet their care or even when they are not. We are supposed to be role models. Is violating practices and guiding divers beyond their recommended limits role model behavior? And what about our own morals and ethics? Should those also not come into play and those who.have ethics and morals that allow them to risk others lives be kicked out? If not why not?
I brought up Cozumel and Grand Cayman. Cozumel cowboys killed and injured themselves while risking others lives by denying resources to those who might have needed them for an actual accident. Yet there were no cries of outrage or action taken even on such a pitiful level as this by PADI against those PADI professionals. In Grand Cayman a pro knowingly took a new diver on his second post OW cert dive on a planned 100 ft wall dive. The guy died aftef reaching 342ft and doing a 2 minute ascent from 302 according to his computer.
What warnings did they send out then? Not a damn thing. Why don't the good instructors from every agency whose peers did these things demand answers and action.
You have a great opportunity to do that now if you're going to DEMA. And ask your reps.
Otherwise the next time someone dies due to this how can you say you don't share some of the blame?

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Some of us do, Jim. A few years back a DM candidate died because of the reckless actions of a local NAUI instructor. I was among a rather large percentage of NAUI instructors in my area who contacted HQ demanding that this person be permanently banned from NAUI, which happened almost immediately.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added November 5th, 2013 at 08:06 AM ----------

Belize is not the USA. In 3rd world countries and developing countries unfortunately the grab for the dollar leads to some terrible human and ecological damages that just get appauling because they don't have the USA's ecologicial awakening, tree hugger mentality and litigious society. Can I get more fish if I dynamite the reef? Hey, I have a box of dynamite over in the shed behind my house... BOOM goes the reef. Can I get an extra $5.00 if I let the tourist ride the whale shark? Next day the whale shark has a rope around its tale and has been dragged in to shore so the 325 lb European can sit on it and get a picture taken for her Christmas card..

I don't care for more government intervention, but unfortunately in countries outside the USA, the carnage just gets worse and worse and won't stop until the government has to step in.

The 'good' dive operators cry that their hands are tied in Belize because there is nobody to stop the bad dive operators from running wild, there is no consequences to their actions so the good dive operations suffer financially. Sometimes, it will take the government to come in and create a more level playing field in order to weed out the bad dive ops and reward the good dive operators.

It doesn't always need government intervention. Many places in Indonesia have this problem ... and some dive operations have addressed it by paying the locals not to fish the reefs they use for their clients.

Financial incentives usually work better than government regulation anyway ... for everybody ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added November 5th, 2013 at 08:09 AM ----------

The father was a relatively experienced diver and was diving with his sons with Ramon's. For some reason, I thought they'd found his body this past year. In any event, these anecdotes are from quite a number of years ago and there have been many changes since that time.

I was doing a sidemount deco dive with some fellow tech instructors at Blue Hole this past summer to 160'. I was a bit concerned to see some OW divers above us at 150' on single tank.

I agree, if you are leading as a guide or Divemaster, representing PADI, then standards must be followed.

... apparently not enough changes have been made. Under no circumstances should a dive professional be taking anyone to 150 feet on a single tank ... especially not those oversized beer cans they use in Belize. They simply don't hold enough air ... if anything goes wrong, you're screwed ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[iluvtheocean]

saw the thread and thought the Blue Hole was an interesting concept --- and like any dive I check out info about it before doing it (even a new local shore dive spot) -- found this
DIVE BELIZE, The Great Blue Hole, Ambergris Caye, Belize, Diving in the Caribbean

A rare - wonderful dive. However this is truly a techical category decompression dive, not recommended for newbys or resort dive qualified divers. (The bottom of Blue Hole is over 400 feet down and the wall slopes back, such that one must have absolute buoyancy control rather than to depend on something to grasp if starting to plummet while descending. Likewise - ballooning is equally deadly to ones health when coming up from 150 plus feet and requires excellent buoyancy control. Decompression times are around 10 to 15 minutes at 20 feet.). The best dive guides anchor a spare tank and regulator at your 20 foot deco spot, usually at the permanent mooring anchor located around the rim of the Blue Hole, which your boat moors too

The fact that you are doing a dive in a giant hole that the bottom is almost 400' down and the walls slope INWARDS and not much to see below the 60 coral line -- and to check out the caves?? and they want OW or AOW divers to do this?
I'd be very leery of doing this dive myself and wouldn't want to go below the thermocline -- and i'd want my own gear cause i wouldn't want to risk buoyancy issues in rental gear in this kind of environment.
The first line of the quoted paragraph above states it's basically a tech deco dive as it is!

 

[muteki]

This has been a great thread to read. I'm going to Belize in a few weeks and am planning to do the dive. At this point, I'm going to be very careful about selecting a shop to dive from, and keeping an ear out for everyone else in my group. I'm AOW & Nitrox, and have dove to 41m / 135ft with no issues, but reading this has been a good reminder to stay on the cautious side.

 

[chillyinCanada]

There may be caves at 400' but not at 130'.

The dive op I go with is quite specific about the depth and emphatically cautions the divers to hold their depth. Yes, it is true that some divers have a little trouble on initial descent stopping short at 130 feet and may drop a bit deeper but then join the group at 125'-130'. At this point, when the bold paragraph above says that the Hole slopes backwards, is not really accurate.

The Blue Hole was once an underground cave that has collapsed, in an almost perfect circle. From the lip of the Hole at 40', the wall pretty much goes straight down until approx. 125'. Here there is a bit of an undercut from which the stalactites hang. A diver can choose to wind through these or stay just outside and view them without going under the overhang. There's really very little life at this point in the Blue Hole. In fairness, there's very little life at all. That said, I have recently been able to enjoy a fully mature spotted drum hanging out in very small chamber.

While i very much enjoy seeing the sharks, they are not as plentiful nor as aggressive as they used to be, due to the change in the feeding practice.

The Blue Hole dive day is a long wonderful and often even enchanting way to spend a day. The journey back and forth to San Pedro less so. And in that regard, it behooves one to carefully consider which boat and crew will carry you.

Myself I prefer a large comfortable boat with a head. Which isn't to say that you can always use that head during passage. Regardless, still a much better situation than back in the day when the boat had to stop to let the women off into the water for a nature break.

 

[Doc]

What a shotgun thread... going every which way.

The Blue Hole is a marketing monster created by Tourism Belize because most visiting divers are too inept to be able to see the true wonders of the Belizian reef systems in the shallows. The only good picture of the Blue Hole is from 20,000 feet in an airplane.

It feeds the "need" to establish one's maximum depth attained, which is, of course, proportionately related to the size of a male diver's pink snorkel.

The Blue Hole is a long way to go for a "logbook dive". If you get bent, thusly, it's a real long thrash back to get to the chamber.

The DM's are represented by more than one particular certifying agency. Don't blame the one trying to address this issue.

Many visitors to paradise assume that their DMs have some sort of a card and thus their standard of duty is the same as all previous DMs during pool sessions and in the USA. Visiting divers assume that since the shop is XYZ Agency, so are the dive boats and DMs~ both are often assumed to be under that umbrella as well.

The Belize Government has been decisive to act when pressure was applied in terms of forced employment of locals. This restriction has caused at least two liveabaords (of which I am aware) to seriously adjust their business models before Belizian operations begin. When a Belizian liveaboard qualified DM could not be found (much less an OWSI which would be the minimum for an American), one of the boats just hired a local at full pay to basically stand there- and fulfill the requirement for local talent. If the Belize Government wants to fix this, they will. Of course, it's really not much different than the blind eye that Bonaire turns to the car break-in scam at it's main feature: the shore dive parking lots.

The industry (in this case PADI) might be concentrating this on Belize because that is where they have the greatest chance of changing anything. There is a semblance of legitimate government there. This easily explains why they didn't focus on anything in Mexico- where they would have no chance of effecting any meaningful change. In Belize, the problem is easily identified. In Mexico it is so pervasive and gross that it has by default become standard operating procedure.

After we fix this, we can get busy on the South Pacific... a place where everyone can dive any thing.

Again, don't blame the messenger... and far be it from me to defend any agency.

The best view of the Hole: