Planning to go to Belize? Unsafe practices you should know know about addressed

[tphelps]

I was doing a sidemount deco dive with some fellow tech instructors at Blue Hole this past summer to 160'. I was a bit concerned to see some OW divers above us at 150' on single tank.

I agree, if you are leading as a guide or Divemaster, representing PADI, then standards must be followed.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Exactly right. So why do they get away with it as well? Why aren't their certs yanked? Why are they allowed to continually violate safe diving practices and ethical responsibilities.

 

[boulderjohn]

I was doing a sidemount deco dive with some fellow tech instructors at Blue Hole this past summer to 160'. I was a bit concerned to see some OW divers above us at 150' on single tank.

I agree, if you are leading as a guide or Divemaster, representing PADI, then standards must be followed.

As the article specifically says, the standards apply only to training dives conducted by instructors. There are no standards for dives performed by certified divers. There are recommendations, but there are no standards.

 

[DevonDiver]

As the article specifically says, the standards apply only to training dives conducted by instructors. There are no standards for dives performed by certified divers. There are recommendations, but there are no standards.

Incorrect John.

There are TWO sets of standards to which pros/centers are beholden.

Training Standards (as you mentioned) and Membership Standards.

PADI are quick to yank centers/instructors under the guise of membership standards for issues that impact PADI financially; such as not selling the requisite manuals, or mis-use of PADI promotional materials. There is an absolute inertia in janking memberships for safety related issues. The exception being when someone has already died... only then do PADI distance themselves by caning memberships.

Examples:

PADI Dive Center/Resort Association Standards V.4

PADI Member License and Membership Agreement 2011

 

[boulderjohn]

Incorrect John.

There are TWO sets of standards to which pros/centers are beholden.

Training Standards (as you mentioned) and Membership Standards.

PADI are quick to yank centers/instructors under the guise of membership standards for issues that impact PADI financially; such as not selling the requisite manuals, or mis-use of PADI promotional materials. There is an absolute inertia in janking memberships for safety related issues. The exception being when someone has already died... only then do PADI distance themselves by caning memberships.

Examples:

PADI Dive Center/Resort Association Standards V.4

PADI Member License and Membership Agreement 2011

Please identify the violations identified in these agreements when operators take certified divers beyond recommended limits.

 

[DevonDiver]

Please identify the violations identified in these agreements when operators take certified divers beyond recommended limits.

There's two issues John:

1) What specific membership agreements govern the application of Safe Diving Practices?

and

2) Why PADI have not chosen to specifically enforce general diving safety through their membership agreements?

Given the situation outlined in this thread, I personally don't think "what PADI now do" is not so relevant as "what PADI could do, or should do".

PADI could address this issue by applying leverage through membership agreements. They don't. Shouldn't they?

 

[drrich2]

how is it taking a newly certified diver to 130ft any different then taking them into the cenotes, OW certification doesn't allow overhead environments

The degree of danger is presumed to be different.

While technically OW-trained divers are not to engage in any overhead diving, simple guided swim throughs happen quite often; not only on reefs, but I also learned this can be true of some wreck diving also.

The 130 ft (or for that matter, 100 ft, or over 60 ft) issue has been a difficult one on other threads. On the one hand, we have OW divers with loads of experience who are much more capable than some newer AOW divers, and people bemoan having to pay for an AOW cert. so U.S. charter boat op.s will take them on dives over 60 ft deep, due to liability concerns. It may even be seen as dive training agencies using depth limit recommendations to create an environment pressuring people to 'Put Another Dollar In' so they can engage in the tropical tourist diving a lot of people get certified to do.

It's been repeatedly rehashed elsewhere on the forum that depth 'limits' are RECOMMENDATIONS, not regulated maximums for which people need a license (some specific cert.).

Yet now, in this thread, it's evil that the agencies haven't already cracked down to mandate additional training for this dive.

I'm wondering whether there's some happy medium between what DevonDiver wrote:

Going beyond that failure to advise... some may even encourage divers to exceed their comfort/competency; advocating 'trust me' diving; where the diver's are told it is "ok" for them to rely entirely upon their dive guide to supervise and ensure their safety. This is, again, highly contrary to safe diving practices.

and government regulation. SuperGaigin wrote:

What I would like is to see the operators of 'tourist diving' self-police and start raising the bar, denying access to certain sites.

I believe this is what some op.s in Cozumel do with sites like Barracuda?

So, do people want a Belize dive industry where the staff just 'make a judgment call' at their own discretion without formal guidelines (those with lower standards may make more money?), or do you want PADI, SSI, etc..., to dictate cert.-based depth limits?

Since a lot of Blue Hole diving is said to be 140 - 150 feet (bounce dives, I believe?), and some Belize staff need to make money, is it realistic to think they'll quit taking divers without tech. cert.s on those dives? Keep them no deeper than 130 feet?

People rightly criticize doing the dive on a single 80 cf tank; if an op. used steel 120's, how much of a difference, if any, would that make for you?

Richard.

 

[DevonDiver]

So, do people want a Belize dive industry where the staff just 'make a judgment call' at their own discretion without formal guidelines (those with lower standards may make more money?), or do you want PADI, SSI, etc..., to dictate cert.-based depth limits?

Since a lot of Blue Hole diving is said to be 140 - 150 feet (bounce dives, I believe?), and some Belize staff need to make money, is it realistic to think they'll quit taking divers without tech. cert.s on those dives? Keep them no deeper than 130 feet?

People rightly criticize doing the dive on a single 80 cf tank; if an op. used steel 120's, how much of a difference, if any, would that make for you?

Money versus customer safety. Hmm... ethics... huh?

Instructors, operators, agencies... all have to make those decisions. We can see which side of the balance many fall upon...

 

[drrich2]

DevonDiver:

I checked out the links you provided in an earlier post, and got lost in the contractual legalese. Boulderjohn already asked the question I had in mind; does the PADI membership agreement put contractual obligations on dive guides leading certified divers not actively enrolled in a course on the dive?

As for PADI deciding to act contrary to its business interest (profit) but using membership as leverage to pressure/police dive op.s, why would they do that? The op. practices in question are not PADI-approved to begin with.

They could. Then again, most of us could probably do more good in the world, yet for whatever reason choose not to.

Perhaps one of the best things PADI could do is beef up their OW manual diver education on the hazards of diving, and maybe even include a real world example or two using foolish Blue Hole dives?

Richard.

P.S.: Remember that for some of these people, money = food, clothing & shelter for they & their families. Doesn't seem so petty when viewed that way.

---------- Post added November 4th, 2013 at 11:54 PM ----------

Help me understand how deeply PADI is involved with these shop practices.

Is PADI providing, or essential to providing, the insurance, if any, of these dive op.s? I'm not familiar with the Belize dive industry; in the U.S. most any business is insured, and I believe PADI is in the insurance business. But Belize?

Unlike SSI, PADI provides for independent instructors. If a dive shop/charter op. weren't PADI-affiliated, how big a setback would that be for their business? If I've got a dive boat in Belize, and an associated dive shop and want to take vacation divers on boat trips, can I just hire a couple of dive guides & go? After all, I can have a couple of independent PADI instructors teach classes if need be.

Is there a chance PADI putting pressure on op.s will lead to op.s using non-dive professional guides for these dives? Might that make the situation more dangerous, not less?

 

[Mike]

I'm wondering whether there's some happy medium between what DevonDiver wrote:



and government regulation. SuperGaigin wrote:



I believe this is what some op.s in Cozumel do with sites like Barracuda?

So, do people want a Belize dive industry where the staff just 'make a judgment call' at their own discretion without formal guidelines (those with lower standards may make more money?), or do you want PADI, SSI, etc..., to dictate cert.-based depth limits?

Since a lot of Blue Hole diving is said to be 140 - 150 feet (bounce dives, I believe?), and some Belize staff need to make money, is it realistic to think they'll quit taking divers without tech. cert.s on those dives? Keep them no deeper than 130 feet?

People rightly criticize doing the dive on a single 80 cf tank; if an op. used steel 120's, how much of a difference, if any, would that make for you?

Richard.

I'd like to simply see them move to a widely accepted double set of criteria for the blue hole diver

To go on the 'deep' dive, diver must have a minimum of AOW, and limit the depth of this dive to 130 ft.

Nothing more difficult than that.

I also think the entire dive industry in Belize is missing the boat money wise in regard to the blue hole. If they'd get their act together they'd have a whole new revenue source by selling a ton of AOW courses to divers with the blue hole as the goal upon certification, with the deep dive to 130 ft as the graduation/deep dive.