Please read these 2 sides of the story and help me pick a better shop next time

[SandyRobinson]

Shame on the OP for not requiring his father to take a refresher course(maybe the same for he and his wife). Double shame on the DS for not requiringthe refresher course. IMHOn it borders on negligence to let him dive. Much has changed in 35 years.


Shame on the OP for not expecting to set up his own gear. Shame on the DS for not checking. I personally want to set up my own life support gear.

Shame on the DM for not recognizing 3 divers could not keep up with her. Not acceptable for a guide.

Shame on DM for not knowing(or acring) enough about the divers to monitor their air during the dive. Not sure they have to be checked at the end of the dive unless the OP can canot read a PG.

Shame on DS for suggesting that dives are 135 in the Keys. Most trips are 80 to 85 plus tax w/o eqip. Multi day discounts run 65 or so and include tanks.

Shame on the DM for introducing herself to the three divers-could have done this while checking gear setup. Shame on the OP for not introducing themselves and discussing experience with the DM

I would avoid the OP as a buddy on the DS as a customer

Consider Key Largo for your cert - silent world or conch republic. If you want to go ouit of the country, consider Cozumel. Ask for Jose Pool at Dive Paradis
Excuse spelling. Sent from BBe

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Shame on the OP for not requiring his father to take a refresher course(maybe the same for he and his wife). Double shame on the DS for not requiringthe refresher course. IMHOn it borders on negligence to let him dive. Much has changed in 35 years.


Shame on the OP for not expecting to set up his own gear. Shame on the DS for not checking. I personally want to set up my own life support gear.

Shame on the DM for not recognizing 3 divers could not keep up with her. Not acceptable for a guide.

Shame on DM for not knowing(or acring) enough about the divers to monitor their air during the dive. Not sure they have to be checked at the end of the dive unless the OP can canot read a PG.

Shame on DS for suggesting that dives are 135 in the Keys. Most trips are 80 to 85 plus tax w/o eqip. Multi day discounts run 65 or so and include tanks.

Shame on the DM for introducing herself to the three divers-could have done this while checking gear setup. Shame on the OP for not introducing themselves and discussing experience with the DM

I would avoid the OP as a buddy on the DS as a customer

Consider Key Largo for your cert - silent world or conch republic. If you want to go ouit of the country, consider Cozumel. Ask for Jose Pool at Dive Paradis
Excuse spelling. Sent from BBe

You have so many shame on you's but why would a guide need to check gear setup of certified divers? That would be along the lines of expecting the guide to set up your computer for you.

 

[SandyRobinson]

You have so many shame on you's but why would a guide need to check gear setup of certified divers? That would be along the lines of expecting the guide to set up your computer for you.

Good question Steve. If either the OP or the DM had communicated with each other, the DM would realized the father had not been diving in 35 years. In this case I believe she should have double checked. But if I was a guiding a few divers, I would be interested in knowing how my customers/buddies gear was set up and I would want to show them my set up in the event of an emergency.

 

[Dive the World]

The divers should have taken a refresher.

The guide should have kept a better eye on them and been a better guide.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

Good question Steve. If either the OP or the DM had communicated with each other, the DM would realized the father had not been diving in 35 years. In this case I believe she should have double checked. But if I was a guiding a few divers, I would be interested in knowing how my customers/buddies gear was set up and I would want to show them my set up in the event of an emergency.

The OP isn't the one that had this problem, they are asking what to do, but yes the buddy check should have been done, but when they refused the refresher, that meant they were capable of doing everything themselves. how are you supposed to interpret a little rusty to mean you should baby sit us. If the father hadn't been diving in 35 years shouldn't the others have paid more attention to helping set up his gear, not the dive-guide?

 

[Doc Harry]

When I take a woman on a dinner date, and her order with the waiter goes something like, "...I my salad with the cheese and dressing on the side, make sure there are plenty of tomatoes and that the lettuce is fresh and the pieces should not be too big, and make sure that the onions are cut thin, and I want my steak medium-rare, with only the center being pink but not too pink...," then I know that this woman will NEVER be satsified with anything I should excuse myself to go to the bathroom and never return.

Likewise, when someone says, "...If I'm paying 165 pp, I expect my gear to be put together for me..." then you can expect that they will NEVER be satisifed and they will complain about everything.

I read the original post quite carefully, and I am inclined to believe the dive operator rather than the divers who complained.

Sounds like the divers had expectations that they did not communicate to the dive operator and dive master - or perhaps the divers just didn't want to pay for the extra attention.

 

[lv2dive]

Just for clarity - Where people are pointing are pointing fingers at the "OP" - the OP of THIS thread is NOT the one who had the problem with the shop - the OP of this thread is asking how to prevent problems like the one that happened that that was related in the OP.

 

[SandyRobinson]

yes the buddy check should have been done, but when they refused the refresher, that meant they were capable of doing everything themselves. how are you supposed to interpret a little rusty to mean you should baby sit us. If the father hadn't been diving in 35 years shouldn't the others have paid more attention to helping set up his gear, not the dive-guide?

But they were not capable of doing everything. The OP referenced weight issues for his father on both dives. Two years away from diving may be rusty but 35 years away is beyond rusty. The OP should have insisted his father take an OW course. Too many things have changed - horsecollar bc and backpack vs jacket bc; weight belt vs integrated weights: pg vs no pg and j valve; position on low flator hose; octo vs no octo; tables vs computers(reliable ones anyway); rate of ascent; etc. YMMV and that is fine. Enjoy the rest of the weekend

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

But they were not capable of doing everything. The OP referenced weight issues for his father on both dives. Two years away from diving may be rusty but 35 years away is beyond rusty. The OP should have insisted his father take an OW course. Too many things have changed - horsecollar bc and backpack vs jacket bc; weight belt vs integrated weights: pg vs no pg and j valve; position on low flator hose; octo vs no octo; tables vs computers(reliable ones anyway); rate of ascent; etc. YMMV and that is fine. Enjoy the rest of the weekend

If you read the whole post the Divers the Op were referring too refused a refresher course that was offered by the dive shop, said they would be okay. Didn't want to pay the extra expense, They all needed to have taking it. When on the boat they expected the dive guide to give them a refresher. The personal attention they wanted, they should have hired a private dm to take care of them. I'm sure that going out with 3 divers wasn't the dive shops plan, but that's all they had that day. Enjoy the rest of your weekend also :cool2:Stay hydrated:cool2:

 

[yarik83]

I think that above mentioned analogy with woman and a salad is very appropriate to this conversation. Myself, as a former waiter of many years had to deal with that situation many times per day.

A great place to start, while analyzing this whole situation is to understand that consumer expectations have a different meaning in scuba diving.

The first issue with this conversation is that you have adults assuming that their personal safety is in hands of other grown people. Dive operator provided example of sky diving and that argument is extremely appropriate. Those that dive in tandem with a certified sky diver place their own safety into hands of another human being who IS certified. Solo sky divers are expected to pack their own parachutes, check their own lines, pull the cord when necessary, pull backup parachute if necessary, assume proper posture in air and land safely. Scuba divers are not excepted for scuba related rules. Every single diver... every single diver... every single diver needs to be responsible for his or her own gear. That is the law of diving. As a diver you set up your own gear, do proper buddy checks and DO NOT DIVE if you do not know how to dive. Which brings me to the point that is omitted in this conversation...

It is an injustice to the sport of diving that scuba certifications are issued to people who do not dive all the time. You would not believe how many people I have met over past 5 years who have said that they dive "all the time for years" and have less than 20 actual dives in past 30 years. How do you dive all the time for 30 years and only have 20 dives to your name? I know how: You ASSUME that it is ok to call yourself a diver while in actuality you barely have any experience at all. And that is why conversation at hand is ever more important.

Any dive operator in Florida has a captain and a "assistant". In the keys they also have dive masters but their MAIN priority is that you do not go breaking reefs left and right. They are not really there to lead the dive. They are not there to baby sit divers and by all accounts neither dive masters nor boat operators are liable for any harm that comes to a diver... that is why every diver is REQUIRED to sign appropriate waivers that in all practical terms place all responsibilities solely on the diver.

List of things wrong in this conversation:
1) Diver announced that group is very rusty.
2) Diver assumed that dive operator is responsible for diver's gear
3) Diver refused a refresher course which would have alleviated problems
4) Diver has not kept up with dive leader
5) Diver has not followed proper "lost buddy" procedure
6) Diver has assumed that it is ok to begin surfacing with 500 PSI in tank... it is never ok to surface with 500 PSI in tank and ESPECIALLY when you are not an EXPERIENCED diver.
7) Diver had certain expectations of what their money pays without doing proper research on what exactly is included in the dive package.

* I should point out that most certifying agencies recommend that you start surfacing with 1000 PSI in tank. Most dive operators recommend that you surface with no less than 700 PSI in tank and SOME operators REQUIRE you to have NO LESS than 500 PSI when on boat.

Things that were wronged by the dive operator:

1) Operator allowed inexperienced divers to dive alone. What they should have done is denied divers from going without taking a refresher course or at he very least required diver to purchase dive assistants that would babysit them in water.

So the morale of this story is:

#1 get certified and get experience by diving. If you do not regularly dive (that is at least once a month) you should take a refresher if applicable or spend time in pool/lake to get ready for the big dive.
#2 do not expect anyone else to go ahead and set up your gear for you. Your gear is yours... even if you rented it. You should know fully well how to operate gear that is used for the dive. That is why most active divers own their own gear AND know it inside and out and can operate it completely blind.