Please read these 2 sides of the story and help me pick a better shop next time

[herbdb]

Obviously, the divers could have used some refresher training. Shame on them for not getting the training. Many dive ops I have used require recent experience and would have refused to take all of them without a refresher. Makes you wonder why they were allowed to board the boat. If this was to be a guided dive, the DM did a very poor job and had a bad attitude. Bet her tip jar stays pretty empty. Some people want to have someone hold their hand.

A little discussion about expectations would have gone a long way toward avoiding problems in this case. I don't want much from the crew, but others want more.

I personally usually avoid guided dives. I expect the crew to be helpful and friendly and I want a good brief on the dive site. I'll take care of my own gear, thanks. I do appreciate a little help getting me and my cameras in and out of the water.

 

[cocoajoe]

First of all I am going to direct everyone to this thread.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html
These types of occurrences are why I wrote it to begin with.

Next I suggest you read this one for finding a good class.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ng/287780-how-find-excellent-scuba-class.html

Just talking to an instructor usually won't do it. You need to actually interview them as you would any employee. Only this employee is going to teach you how to survive, exist, and hopefully have fun in an alien environment that is normally hostile to human life and if you forget that may injure or even kill a diver in some very nasty ways.

The main thing to remember is unless SPECIFICALLY contracted for it, the DM is not responsible for your safety. Neither is your buddy. You are and your training should prepare you for that. I actually look for ops that do not put a DM in the water. I don't want one. I decide what is interesting to me. All I want is a good site briefing, which it sounds like the people got, a heading, and then leave me and my buddy, if I have one, alone to do the dive that we planned. The poster of that thread sounds like a pampered spoiled individual who never learned about personal responsibility. If I am going on a dive that is costing me over $100 I don't want someone I have never met touching my gear.

I do not expect them to plan my dive, keep track of my air, keep track of the time, or all of the above. That is my job. Theirs is to get me to the site and back safely. And hopefully have fresh cut oranges after the dives. A certified diver should never NEED a DM. There is a difference between needing and wanting one. A certified diver should be trained well enough to know when it would be a good idea to have one and when one is not needed. If an instructor ever says you do not need to worry about this or that since the op will have a DM in the water run, don't walk, away from that instructor and find another one.

"The main thing to remember is unless SPECIFICALLY contracted for it, the DM is not responsible for your safety."

Exactly. Big difference between a DM who's leading a group and one you paid extra for. Refusing some pool time prior to the dive? That's just dumb and dangerous. He's expecting DM to "put his gear together"? Who is this guy, the king of England? To my knowledge that just don't happen here in Fla. Besides I don't know anyone who would like it. I don't even like a buddy check where the buddy's hands are on my stuff. If he sees something wrong tell me about it.

 

[SnorkelLA]

Oh, didn't see the part about this just being 2 reviews. I keep to my post though


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[MMM]

In terms of advice to the OP on how to avoid a similar experience, I have one suggestion and that is that if you haven't already done so, go to the section of the board on geographic forums for the area you want to dive. There will likely be reviews of different dive ops you could go over. Or you could buy a subscription to Undercurrent, which provides an annual "report" by users, divided by country, reviewing various dive ops.

A second way to avoid the experience you posted is to really try to understand what a diver is responsible for. I don't think it at all unreasonable, for example, to be asked to set up my own gear on a first dive. Don't think that this means the DM or crew aren't watching you and/or won't correct you if you get it wrong. But it provides an indication of what the person knows.

A third way is to ask questions before you get in the water. Get clarity on hand signals, whether the DM wants to know when you reach a certain tank pressure, how close they expect you to stay, etc. etc. Ask as many questions as you need to in order to feel you know what you need to do. Make no assumptions.

 

[Gudu]

Background: Husband and I paid for OW course at our LDS. Things went very bad (see my post "Disappointed"). We thought we picked a good shop after talking to him on numerous occasions. We plan to re-take the class/CW here and finish our OW dives in warm, caribbean waters, possibly this fall.

I recently found this thread on another forum and wanted to get opinions from you wise SB members. The first one is from the dive customer and the response is from the shop owner. What can I learn from this story (or what can you offer) to help us pick a better shop to finish our OW certifications with? We will be going to the same country where the incident outlined below occurred. I have removed any references to people, places and shops. *Sorry it's so long!!



“ Stay Away from **!!!! Unprofessional and UNSAFE ”
We had the absolute WORST diving experience with this "company". It could not have been any worse!
It is pretty clear that the reason the prices are so high ($165 per person for two tank dive with rental gear!) and the product is so bad is that there is no competition for this outfit.
Here's a quick run down of what happened:
It was just myself, my wife, and my father on the dive. My wife and I hadn't gone diving in 2 years and it had been 35 years for my dad. Obviously we were all rusty and all pretty much beginners.
We spend 15 minutes loading up and are directed to put all our gear together. If I'm paying 165 pp, I expect my gear to be put together for me - especially since we're so rusty and I want it to be put together SAFELY. But this isn't that big of a deal.
During the load up time and the 20 minute boat ride to the reef, the dive master never once says a word to us. No smiles, no introductions, no small talk - literally doesn't acknowledge we are even on the boat. When we get there, she just starts talking and giving directions. Never once learns any of the 3 of our names during the entire trip.
The first dive goes ok until the end. She directs us to all come up suddenly. We all had over 1000 psi still in our tanks (I had 1400psi). I ask her why we came up early and not dive until about 500 psi (we were only in 30 ft of water anyway right by the boat) and she said "oh, you could have stayed down until 500". Gee thanks for letting me know AFTER you cut our first dive short.
On to the second dive, my father didn't have enough weight in the first dive and couldn't ever really get deep so the dive master put some more weight in his vest for the second dive. Well it turns out that it still wasn't enough and he was never able to get deeper than about 10 feet. At no point did she try to help get him down, take him to the surface to talk to him about it, or add any more weight (all dive masters should carry extra weight that they can slip into somebody's vest at any point in the dive!).
************This is where it gets REALLY BAD AND REALLY DANGEROUS**************** On the second dive, my wife sat out so it was just me, my father, and the divemaster. Well we get halfway through and she rings her bell to get our attention underwater. We look about 30 -40 yards behind us and she is signaling to turn around. We do so immediately but to our surprise so does she without waiting on us. We are swimming as fast as we can to catch up but we just watch her fins disappear in the distance. SHE LEFT US. We continue to swim but never see her. She never lets us catch up, never turns around to check on us, JUST ABANDONS US. We are literally left by ourselves on this reef. So we slow down and just start really "diving" assuming she'll come back to get us. 15 MINUTES pass with no divemaster. My father and I decide to surface to see where we are and make sure the boat was still in sight. We see the boat and go back down and start heading back to the boat. Still no divemaster. She finally catches up to us (a total of 20 minutes diving completely by ourselves). At that point, she did not even check to see if we were ok or check our air to see how much we had left! We just kept heading to the boat.
Once we get there, we still had about 1000psi and she motioned that she was cold and was heading to the boat. She had warned us before this dive that she might "Get cold and head in early but that we could just continue to dive". When she headed back, again she did not bother checking our air!!!!!! Plus, what sort of operation lets divers dive by themselves with no divemaster?!?!? If we wanted to do that, we wouldn't have paid $165!!!! So dangerous and they should lose their license!!!
I liken this to going on a jungle tour in Costa Rica that your guide loses you on and after finding you again, cuts your tour short because she is hot and just leaves you in the jungle to fend for yourself while telling you to just find your way back and meet her at the hotel. Dangerous, crazy, unprofessional, and shocking!
My wife, who was on the boat during this second dive, said the divemaster surfaced and had to coordinate with the boat captain to find us. He pointed out our bubbles and she came back down to find us....
When we got back to the boat, I asked "What the heck was that?!?!" to the divemaster and she sharply replied that WE had left her! I said we were simply swimming fast as we could to catch up with her and that she didn't wait or even look back to see if we were there! Plus - how do you lose two (2?!?!) people!? It's HER Job to keep up with us - not the other way around!
The worst part is that we complained directly to the owner when we got back. We told him the whole situation and never ONCE did he apologize or even seem concerned. He even gave us a sense of apathy. He defended the divemaster saying she had been with him a long time. He also replied with a snappy "Well what was your bottom time?" as if we were complaining more about the diving times than the absolute disregard for safety and human life. Again, never apologized once and said "he'll look into it".
So I would highly suggest that people don't dive AT ALL there as opposed to diving with this monopolistic dive company. It's clear that zero competition has created a culture of unprofessionalism, danger, apathy, and high prices with this outfit. Avoid them at all costs! There is an outfit in nearby ** that is supposed to be good - it's just not on **. Not sure the name but the diving wasn't that great anyway. Beautiful reefs but not much wildlife and trash abounded on the ocean floor. Nothing like Mexico or Belize!!!






REPLY:
Hello, I am **, the owner of ** for 11 years now. I have built this dive operation on my reputation of being a safe a reliable dive operator. We have many repeat customers who love to dive with us.
We dive with the grand parents, parents, and have taught all their children to dive within ** Second homeowners.
Of the 7 dive shops here in **, we are one of the safest dive operations in **, having no accident reports and never having sunk their dive boat like other dive operations in **.
Please understand that there are always two side to every story. I am not saying the customer is wrong, but both parties need to take responsibility for their actions.
When a customer comes in to the dive shop after a dive and complains, I always listen to what the customer has to say, and believe in what they say. I request then to speak to my dive master and boat captain and find out more information before I can make a judgement as to what really happened. We have had three problems over 11 years, and some people you can never make happy!
First off, as a Certified Scuba Diver, you are always responsible for your own actions, and must take on this responsibility. This is taught in the course, to look after your gear, your air, yourself, and also you dive buddy's. Never dive alone!
When you came into the dive shop to make the booking, you informed me that you had not dove in several years, I then, as always, offered you a refresher dive in the pool to get aquatinted with scuba diving and practice some skills. You REFUSED, saying that all was good, we are good divers, and needed no help, but were a little rusty! Yes, rusty from not diving for several years. Well, big surprise to us, when you remember nothing and lie to us. We always have all of our certified divers/customers set up their own scuba gear on our boat. This shows us if you know what you are doing, are really certified, and if it has been a while since your last dive, lets you get reacquainted with your scuba gear, and reminds you where everything is and if everything is still working, (Just like a Sky Diver who takes responsible for his own gear, a jumper always packs his own shoot, knows all about it and how it work on every jump). We then look after the equipment for you from then on, including changing the tanks and rinsing the gear after the dive. We always look after all resort scuba divers, beginner divers, and student divers, but certified scuba divers, saying they know it all, but are a little rusty, need to take responsibility of their own actions. I see that you have never dove in FL, where you carry your own tanks, set it up, change over tanks, do it all, and have a dive master not in the water, but only on the dive boat. We have two boat captains on the boat at all times, and one is a dive master to lead the dive and help the divers who ask for help. The boat captain looks after the boat, and follow the bubbles. NOT all dive shop in ** have two boat captains on their boat! Some leave their boat unattended and have no one on the surface if a problem occurs.
A dive master is a guide to guide you around the reef. If you cannot follow a dive master nor if you cannot follow simple instructions, especially when you are only two divers to follow one dive master, then you should not be scuba diving as a certified diver. You were in water at a depth of 45 feet, in 35 feet of visibility and lost a dive master? Sorry, but my dive master does not have eyes behind her head. When we have certified divers, most certified divers wish to look around, sometime stop to take pictures, and then swim behind the dive master. The dive master looks back every 4 to 5 minutes to see if you are still following. Sometime certified divers do get separated, and as a certified diver, you should know what action to take. Search for one minute then surface. This is what my dive master did when she could no longer see you. My Boat Captain, also saw the dive from the boat, saw your bubbles reverse direction and swim away from the direction of the dive master. He even mentioned this to your wife on the boat. That you were "separated" from the dive master. Our dive master lost you, searched for a minute, then surfaced. Upon surfacing asked the boat captain where your bubble were, and then swam to you.
As for the dive experience the divers had, all of our dive tours are timed at 40 to 45 minutes. Some divers use less air than others, and normally divers return to the boat with between 500 and 800 PSI of air left in their tank.
We do have good divers who may return with up to 1500 PSI, but as we have a dive master in the water, and the divers are require to follow the dive master, we dive by time. This keep us to our work/boat schedule. Dive operator understand this!
If a customer/diver wants us to hold their hand and do everything for them, we do offer a resort scuba diver course, and are more than happy to do this for the divers who ask for help.
And yes, we charge more for this service, up to $200 for a two tank dive. Our normal price for a two tank dive is $135, and includes tanks and weights. Equipment is extra. We are the same price as some of the other dive operations in **. We are as expensive as the Dive operations in Hawaii and the Florida Keys. We are not cheaper than Mexico, Dominica Republic and Costa Rica, nor is our beer at $48 a case! ** is a lot more expensive, food, electricity, fuel, & manpower.
I am very sorry for your bad experience and wish I could do something about it, but I know there is nothing to change your mind!

That sucks------48 Bucks for a case of Beer

 

[lv2dive]

I'd like to cast a vote on the side of the candy-a$$es.

I've just finished a week of delightful boat dives here in Cozumel at the Cozumel Invasion with Dive Paradise. Our DM (Martin) was great because he took responsibility for the welfare of the entire group at all times--on the boat before the dive, in the water during the dive, and on the boat after the dive. He was always looking back and making sure we were okay. He would frequently make suggestions about things like finning style, adding or subtracting air from BC, swimming shallower or deeper, etc. If I ever started looking around for my buddy (yes, I shouldn't have lost track of him in the first place, I admit it), Martin would ring his bell and point to my buddy. So he was always aware of what was going on with each of the 8 divers in the group at all times.

I would never want to go on a group dive with a DM who thought his only responsibility was to point out interesting sites, and who made no effort slow down if the group were falling behind.

...
Since I rent BC and regulator, they're always attached to the tanks by the DM's. If the DM told me to attach my own, I'd wonder what that was about. ...

When I first started diving, I had a lot of similar experiences, where the DMs were very friendly and quite helpful as discussed above. To the extent that I believe I went three or four years where I did not set up my kit myself*. I would note, however... that kind of service is very location-dependent. The first time I dove offshore NC I was in for quite the surprise. We pretty much rented all our gear, and not only did we have to set it up - why, we had to get the tanks to the boat ourselves! :shocked2: That was probably the start of a different phase of my diving.



*and yes, I am rather horrified by this now... but when you start out, you don't know what you don't know, and this was the norm where I was doing most of my diving in the late nineties / early 2000's.

 

[tac747]

what sort of operation lets divers dive by themselves with no divemaster?!?!?

Pretty much every dive boat I have seen on the California coast unless you pay to have a private DM in the water with you

 

[mathauck0814]

what sort of operation lets divers dive by themselves with no divemaster?!?!?​

​

Pretty much every dive boat I have seen on the California coast unless you pay to have a private DM in the water with you

... and anyone else that wants my business!

 

[herbdb]

DMs in the water seems to be the norm in the Carribean dive locations we have visited so far: Cozumel, Roatan, Bonaire and the Bahamas. In the Keys, a couple of operators always have a DM in the water, but for most it is an extra charge service.

In North Carolina, the DMs attach the lines to the wrecks and set up the hang lines, but I have not seen them leading dives. I would love to see how they go about finding the wreck and attaching a line to it at 100+ feet, while the Capt is trying to maintain position over the wreck. Those guys really earn their tips!!

 

[Rogersea]

To the OP, the very best way to avoid this type of disapointing scenario is to be upfront and specific on your abilities and expectations...


Many geographic locations provide several variations on guided dives from the very basic swimming with the group from entry to exit with no other services provided to private and semi private guided tours where the DM acts a spotter for all interesting Marine life...


When diving for pleasure, I enjoy unguided dives, but they are very rare here in the Philippines, most ops provide you with DM at a ratio of about 4divers to 1guide.

Again just communicate your abilities and expectations and you will normally never experience the problems you asked about...

Cheers,
Roger