Parents sue Boy Scouts for 2011 negligence death

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

"for the aspiring Perry Mason in the audience with too much time available, i must admit that 'explained' would have been a better choice of word than 'told'"

not sure who Perry Mason is but I am simply interested how it is outlined in the PADI materials. I would consider "teach, explain, show" to more detailed than "tell or told"
 
Any chance you can tell us who the most successful seller of hamburgers is and the relevance of that success to the quality of the product?

How about a viable analogy? Use straw men often?

We are talking about safety in a life-critical context. Quality sufficient to avoid food poisoning? ABSOLUTELY. Gourmet? No. Doesn't pretend to be.

If you are going to draw an analogy at least pretend you know how to use one.

But since you bring up the analogy- has anyone died from a McDonald's hamburger (obesity and other secondary causes notwithstanding) ? And have there been any verdicts bankrupting the corporate franchise to the point of shutting them down? No? So i guess they are pretty safe for what they are designed for (fast food) - in that respect the PADI analogy holds.

---------- Post added October 8th, 2014 at 09:34 PM ----------

A mandatory assistant when dealing with more than one non-certified diver would eliminate the problem of "who to chase and who to watch in an emergency", however after re-reading the original post, it's not clear there was an emergency. It just says that the instructor and scoutmaster left. If they were chasing someone, that's something PADI could fix with a standards change (assuming the inst. would have followed the standards), but if they just felt like leaving, that's just stupid and not even PADI can "fix stupid",

PADI's market share is a completely different issue and is driven nearly entirely by their marketing, not their safety record or instructional quality. In fact, nobody, especially prospective PADI customers (new SCUBA students) has any way of determining their training or safety record, since injury/fatality/diver activity data isn't available.

flots.

I agree with the first paragraph completely.

We do have DAN statistics on diver injuries as a baseline.

We also have the legal "record" and history.

If PADI standards were as loose as some claim they would: a) have more diver injuries/fatalities b) lose lawsuits and get reamed by the press c) not meet industry standards and fail to be economically viable, thus lose market share and potential close shop

---------- Post added October 8th, 2014 at 09:35 PM ----------

who's the straw man now?

---------- Post added October 8th, 2014 at 08:58 AM ----------



For that matter, Microsoft Windows is the most successful operating system bar none.

Again entirely missing the point of using an analogy. But thanks for playing.
 
Maybe Windows eats at McDonalds? That's why it's so bloated and fat?


Wow!!!! You are a software expert now? so, help me understand how 'bloated' is a kernel that runs unmodified (other than recompiled) on 2Gb either on ARM or x86 and on a Phone?
what exactly do you mean by bloated? I'm really really curious for you to get into the details of your assertions....
 
If PADI standards were as loose as some claim they would: a) have more diver injuries/fatalities b) lose lawsuits and get reamed by the press c) not meet industry standards and fail to be economically viable, thus lose market share and potential close shop.

Just for the sake of counterpoint: there are plenty of reasons that PADI standards could be unreasonably lax as to the safety of what they allow for student/professional ratios and/or acceptable environments without previously incurring enough student injuries/fatalities to move the needle as you suggest. First and foremost, PADI isn't the one with the most to lose, the instructor and/or shop providing the course are. Thus, even if PADI standards were negligently loose, the interests of those who are actively delivering the course would tend to compensate by delivering a safer course than PADI otherwise allows. Second, clueless though students are and dangerous though diving can be, most people placed in a DSD course have enough common sense and self preservation instincts to avoid the tragic outcome that happened here.

It'd only be when you have the overlap of PADI's allegedly negligent standards, a particularly lousy LDS/instructor, and a student or students sufficiently inept or unlucky, that you get a fatality. It's entirely possible that as often as the PADI courses in question are run, you just don't get that particularly alignment very often. Wouldn't change the fact that PADI standards for those classes were unreasonably unsafe, just whether your 'if they were so bad, the world would have ended by now' argument holds water.
 
Just for the sake of counterpoint: there are plenty of reasons that PADI standards could be unreasonably lax as to the safety of what they allow for student/professional ratios and/or acceptable environments without previously incurring enough student injuries/fatalities to move the needle as you suggest. First and foremost, PADI isn't the one with the most to lose, the instructor and/or shop providing the course are. Thus, even if PADI standards were negligently loose, the interests of those who are actively delivering the course would tend to compensate by delivering a safer course than PADI otherwise allows. Second, clueless though students are and dangerous though diving can be, most people placed in a DSD course have enough common sense and self preservation instincts to avoid the tragic outcome that happened here.

It'd only be when you have the overlap of PADI's allegedly negligent standards, a particularly lousy LDS/instructor, and a student or students sufficiently inept or unlucky, that you get a fatality. It's entirely possible that as often as the PADI courses in question are run, you just don't get that particularly alignment very often. Wouldn't change the fact that PADI standards for those classes were unreasonably unsafe, just whether your 'if they were so bad, the world would have ended by now' argument holds water.

Fair enough... But you'd agree that the conflux required to produce the result is in and of itself sufficient to say that the standards in and of themselves are no "per se" the problem... While I agree that the DSD ratio is in need of a change...
 
Fair enough... But you'd agree that the conflux required to produce the result is in and of itself sufficient to say that the standards in and of themselves are no "per se" the problem... While I agree that the DSD ratio is in need of a change...

I'll say nobody's winning on summary judgment, but that's usually the case unless you can convince the judge that there's no duty in the first place.
 
Wow!!!! You are a software expert now? so, help me understand how 'bloated' is a kernel that runs unmodified (other than recompiled) on 2Gb either on ARM or x86 and on a Phone?
what exactly do you mean by bloated? I'm really really curious for you to get into the details of your assertions....

Nope, not a software expert. My assertions come from someone who is, who tells me that windows has whole sections of code written that are no longer used as new code is written to take it's place, but no one took the time to remove the old. That would be the very definition of bloated and fat, but I'm completely running on heresay here, and it was meant as a joke. I'm sorry you have no sense of humor and can't see the joke, so I'll try to type very slow so you can get it.

You see, it's relatively documented that the food served at McDonalds has way more sugar, fat, and salt than is healthy as a part of a steady.... Oh, screw it. You aren't worth my time.
 
Wow!!!! You are a software expert now? so, help me understand how 'bloated' is a kernel that runs unmodified (other than recompiled) on 2Gb either on ARM or x86 and on a Phone?
what exactly do you mean by bloated? I'm really really curious for you to get into the details of your assertions....

Seriously? Do you have any idea how big 2GB is?

2GB is Jabba The Hut compared to what it should be.

flots.

PS. Yes, I'm an "expert"
 
Last edited:
Wow!!!! You are a software expert now? so, help me understand how 'bloated' is a kernel that runs unmodified (other than recompiled) on 2Gb either on ARM or x86 and on a Phone?
what exactly do you mean by bloated? I'm really really curious for you to get into the details of your assertions....

not to get too far off topic, especially since Windows was brought up as a joke and wasn't intended to make or even support a serious point....but Windows is not a kernel.
 
Nope, not a software expert. My assertions come from someone who is, who tells me that windows has whole sections of code written that are no longer used as new code is written to take it's place, but no one took the time to remove the old. That would be the very definition of bloated and fat, but I'm completely running on heresay here, and it was meant as a joke. I'm sorry you have no sense of humor and can't see the joke, so I'll try to type very slow so you can get it.

I have plenty of sense of humor and can tell or laugh on many jokes about Windows source code - with people who know what we are talking about. What I can see is that the straw man argument becomes a joke when necessary. I suggest finding better analogies next time - that's all.

---------- Post added October 9th, 2014 at 02:15 PM ----------

Seriously? Do you have any idea how big 2GB is?

2GB is Jabba The Hut compared to what it should be.

flots.

PS. Yes, I'm an "expert"


oh, the good old days of programming in assembler the 1 Kb of ZX80 - "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
 

Back
Top Bottom