Parents sue Boy Scouts for 2011 negligence death

[demed]

For the most part I don't cut and paste anything unless I am quoting a person. My articles, essays, and book are all my own words, even though someone insinuated that was not the case, based on my own actual research, experience, training, and beliefs. But this was sent to me by someone following the discussion here and on one of my linked in groups. Too good not to share it.

...
PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY IS A PADI INSTRUCTOR
Interestingly, the plaintiffs’ attorney who is suing PADI and the PADI Instructor on behalf of the family in the Tuvell case is also a PADI Master Instructor. See: http://www.divelawyer.com/about-us/our-team/ According to the plaintiffs’ lawyer’s web site, “Mr. Hall has been a PADI open water instructor since 1984, with a Master Scuba Diver Trainer rating ...
This is only one of many reported incidents involving DSD programs over the last few years, and it is clear from these reports that current ratios and age requirements are not adequate for these programs. According to PADI statistics (DAN Dive Fatality Proceedings 2010) there were 36 DSD fatalities reported between 1989 – 2008 and there have been many more since. The following statistics were provided by Drew Richardson at the DAN workshop:

Program	Historical Fatality ratio (fatalities per 100K dives)
	1989 - 1998​	1999 - 2008​	Average
Entry Level	0.341​	0.415​	0.378​
Advanced Open water	0.74​	0.589​	0.6645​
Discover Scuba Diving (DSD)	2.898​	1.14​	2.019​
Rescue Diver	0.143​	0.091​	0.117​
Specialties (deep, night, wreck etc.)	0.287​	0.82​	0.5535​
Divemaster	1.016​	0.031​	0.5235​
		*ratio was reduced from 6:1 to 4:1 in 2001

Even PADI’s own numbers suggest that the DSD program has issues!

You have just demonstrated that your research consists of cutting and pasting bogus data and information without even checking your sources, simply "because this is too good not to share" - i'm not surprised some ambulance chaser chose you to support his\her case.

The Willis employee is so bad that is contradicting himself in one line - in fact, is mr. Hall, the attorney, a PADI MSDT (as stated on the profile on the attorney site) which means an instructor with 25 certifications on record or a Master Instructor (as introduced by your friend at Willis) which would mean an instructor with hundreds of certifications?

Much much worse is your inability to smell the rat - In fact, if you had the researcher sensitivity to check your sources and READ the paper quoted in this drivel, you would have seen that 2.898 fatalities per 100,000 dives is the total number of fatalities in the 1989-1998 period NOT DSD, which at 12 fatalities (one out of water \ non training) per 22,330,000+ in my home is about 0.054 per 100,000 or about 18/1000 of 2.898. Who cares, they are just numbers, who notices if we mess them up a bit. And in *bold* wink wink....

An insurance agent that is surprised about confidential settlements? did he fall from a tree or was he born this way? 99% of settlement are confidential bacause such is the nature of settlements - they are intended not to assign blame or responsibility and make the nuisance of a court case and the risks associated with a dice roll go away - for BOTH parties, plaintiff AND defendant.

Willis is going to pay money and wanted to share the damage deriving from the risk, and is blaming PADI for the putative loss.

 

[Wookie]

Then being an instructor for them makes you a total hypocrite. You don't like their standards, don't like their marketing, don't like their product... So why be a PADI Pro? TDI or NAUI are viable alternatives...No skin off my teeth.

Unless you get some benefit from affiliating with PADI.... Thought they were useless? Which is it?

But I'd say NAUI and PADI are responsible for half the innovations in scuba and 75% of the standards that were the baseline for every other agency. So how can you say they have done NOTHING for the scuba industry? That's just total whitewashing of history and facts.

PADI is also the largest singular contributor to DAN and I kinda like their safety and dive medicine research and statistics... And their courses.

And having continued marketing the scuba industry as a whole PADI had most certainly been a benefit to the sport - as well.

I understand the frustration of a dive operator looking to make a living being thwarted by market saturation and price competition- but wouldn't the solution be to build the better mousetrap not grouse about the competition?

I will anticipate the response- they are too big- you can't compete... Wonder how they got 70% of market share? They must be doing SOMETHING right.

Again- I can find plenty of flaws in PADI from their sale driven philosophy to the need to tighten and adapt standards.

But anyone saying they are wholly unsafe or have done nothing for scuba diving isn't being intellectually honest.

Such discussions are futile, May as well be punching a rhinoceros... All you do is hurt your hand and piss off the rhino.

....75% of the standards that were the baseline for every other agency

If you consider this a good thing, more power to you. I consider that what they've done is lower the standards and drag the baseline down into the mud, but it really doesn't matter.

You are a PADI fanboy, you are happy using a product that is the easiest on the planet to use, that's great. I don't use it, but I was certified as a PADI instructor many years ago and never bothered to quit, I did stop, however. PADI has no offerings for me except for the ability to buy instructor level insurance. I don't need PADI, I stay for the popcorn.

And, yes, I am a TDI instructor also, along with a host of others. I still don't teach introductory classes, not because I can't, but I don't have the inclination for it. And it isn't that PADI is too big to compete with, it's that PADI is too easy to compete with, as in, PADI offers a class that can be completed in 4 days. Who wants to take a class that takes a semester or a month or one in which you actually have to work and learn when you can push-button your way through an online course where no one actually evaluated your knowledge, then demonstrate a few basic skills in a pool and quarry, and then climb on a boat anywhere in the world and loudly proclaim "I'm certified".

They got 70% of the market share by lowering the standards to the point (and they are proud of this) where everyone can learn to dive, and diving is safe. From the dive operator standpoint, not everyone can learn to dive, and diving isn't safe.

But I never said anywhere that PADI was wholly unsafe or they did nothing for scuba diving. What I said was that PADI claims that diving is safe (it isn't) and that PADI does nothing beneficial for scuba diving unless it benefits PADI. If you're gonna be a PADI fanboy, at least do it with open eyes.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

You have just demonstrated that your research consists of cutting and pasting bogus data and information without even checking your sources, simply "because this is too good not to share" - i'm not surprised some ambulance chaser chose you to support his\her case.

The Willis employee is so bad that is contradicting himself in one line - in fact, is mr. Hall, the attorney, a PADI MSDT (as stated on the profile on the attorney site) which means an instructor with 25 certifications on record or a Master Instructor (as introduced by your friend at Willis) which would mean an instructor with hundreds of certifications?

Much much worse is your inability to smell the rat - In fact, if you had the researcher sensitivity to check your sources and READ the paper quoted in this drivel, you would have seen that 2.898 fatalities per 100,000 dives is the total number of fatalities in the 1989-1998 period NOT DSD, which at 12 fatalities (one out of water \ non training) per 22,330,000+ in my home is about 0.054 per 100,000 or about 18/1000 of 2.898. Who cares, they are just numbers, who notices if we mess them up a bit. And in *bold* wink wink....

An insurance agent that is surprised about confidential settlements? did he fall from a tree or was he born this way? 99% of settlement are confidential bacause such is the nature of settlements - they are intended not to assign blame or responsibility and make the nuisance of a court case and the risks associated with a dice roll go away - for BOTH parties, plaintiff AND defendant.

Willis is going to pay money and wanted to share the damage deriving from the risk, and is blaming PADI for the putative loss.

Again you obviously have never read any of my articles or book. You have no idea of what I've done to research them. The eye witnesses that I've talked to, the police and autopsy reports read when they have been made available, and the reports from DAN and the coast guard. Every article is clearly offered as my opinion based on the information I have at the time it's written. That it offends you and makes you mad means nothing to me. There are hundreds of people who have thanked me for saving them time, money, and aggravation. Some have thanked me for opening their eyes to the actual danger that is involved with this activity. Those are why I write. That my methods don't meet your standards mean squat. Tell us what papers, articles, courses, and presentations you've written in an effort to raise standards, improve diver safety, and raise awareness of the real risks of diving.
And why use an Internet handle when posting? I don't take seriously those who won't use their real name or provide a link to their instructor website.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

Jim, if you don't mind, would you forward that email to my inbox? I missed that one.

Thanks Buddy.

 

[demed]

Again you obviously have never read any of my articles or book. You have no idea of what I've done to research them. The eye witnesses that I've talked to, the police and autopsy reports read when they have been made available, and the reports from DAN and the coast guard. Every article is clearly offered as my opinion based on the information I have at the time it's written. That it offends you and makes you mad means nothing to me. There are hundreds of people who have thanked me for saving them time, money, and aggravation. Some have thanked me for opening their eyes to the actual danger that is involved with this activity. Those are why I write. That my methods don't meet your standards mean squat. Tell us what papers, articles, courses, and presentations you've written in an effort to raise standards, improve diver safety, and raise awareness of the real risks of diving.
And why use an Internet handle when posting? I don't take seriously those who won't use their real name or provide a link to their instructor website.

Jim,
you are demonstrating to be all talk and no action - instead of digressing, can you get into the specifics of the bad information contained in the paid advertising and newswire by Willis you just rebroadcasted?
So far you have provided only pompous attitude and empty statements.

Your "methods" in this case so far have been "copy" and then "paste" - not sure if you also applied formatting, and if you did it would not earn you any extra points. Rebroadcasting bad information does not make you a reasercher, plain and simple. As for the hundreds of people thanking you, it's their problem not mine - the world has never had shortage of bad prophets with large followings.

Personal attacks on the handle or the web site are just the last straw man argument - please talk about facts. You make far too easy to be ironic about self publishing a book and calling oneself author. A respected author generally gets paid by others to write. As a matter of fact, I did get paid to write in legitimate newspapers and magazines, as well as co-authoring 3 books in a totally different field between 25 and 33 years ago, at some point, I actually paid my way through 2 or 3 years of University doing that. I also have to say that when i started writing as an expert, at least I had spent more than 10 years as a pro in the industry I was writing about.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Jim, if you don't mind, would you forward that email to my inbox? I missed that one.

Thanks Buddy.

Will do.

 

[ktomlinson]

Jim,
you are demonstrating to be all talk and no action - instead of digressing, can you get into the specifics of the bad information contained in the paid advertising and newswire by Willis you just rebroadcasted?
So far you have provided only pompous attitude and empty statements.

Your "methods" in this case so far have been "copy" and then "paste" - not sure if you also applied formatting, and if you did it would not earn you any extra points. Rebroadcasting bad information does not make you a reasercher, plain and simple. As for the hundreds of people thanking you, it's their problem not mine - the world has never had shortage of bad prophets with large followings.

Personal attacks on the handle or the web site are just the last straw man argument - please talk about facts. You make far too easy to be ironic about self publishing a book and calling oneself author. A respected author generally gets paid by others to write. As a matter of fact, I did get paid to write in legitimate newspapers and magazines, as well as co-authoring 3 books in a totally different field between 25 and 33 years ago, at some point, I actually paid my way through 2 or 3 years of University doing that. I also have to say that when i started writing as an expert, at least I had spent more than 10 years as a pro in the industry I was writing about.

I am insured by Willis, and just learned that they are not continuing with their recreational dive insurance when Wookie posted it earlier in this thread. I guess notifying their policyholders isn't a top priority. Anyhow, now that they are no longer insuring recreational dive instructors, why would they be advertising, through Jim, or at all? Also, that's not what straw man means. I hear people use that term all of the time, but rarely correctly.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

You make far too easy to be ironic about self publishing a book and calling oneself author. A respected author generally gets paid by others to write.

33 years ago I'm sure Self Publishing a Perry Mason Novel would have seemed like a stupid and unheard of thing.

Whether you agree with the means of publishing, I bought an electronic copy of Jim's books when he published.... and he didn't even have to kill any trees in the process of getting it in front of my eyeballs and into my brain.

I paid him via Paypal. You see, real money... real quick.

I'm sure 33 years ago you would have told me I'm stupid for not sending him a personal check (paper), putting it in an stamped envelope (more paper), sending it via USPS (fossil fuel), making him take it to his bank(more fossil fuel), requiring him to box up his book(paper, more paper), send it back to me via USPS (more fossil fuel) and then finally 2 weeks later.... I have a book!

FWW, one of the biggest authors of this last year or so is a Self Publishing Author.

 

[cerich]

The Willis employee is so bad that is contradicting himself in one line - in fact, is mr. Hall, the attorney, a PADI MSDT (as stated on the profile on the attorney site) which means an instructor with 25 certifications on record or a Master Instructor (as introduced by your friend at Willis) which would mean an instructor with hundreds of certifications?

.

I am a PADI MSDT (also a instructor up to CD with other agencies), are you claiming that I have only 25 certifications on record? Plus, in my observations over the last 20 years as a dive instructor, I am much more impressed by a PADI MSDT than one that is hell bent on becoming a Master Instructor, I have seen VERY few that didn't cut corners and turn themselves into a diver mill (the dive version of a puppy mill with all the bad that implies).

 

[demed]

I am insured by Willis, and just learned that they are not continuing with their recreational dive insurance when Wookie posted it earlier in this thread. I guess notifying their policyholders isn't a top priority. Anyhow, now that they are no longer insuring recreational dive instructors, why would they be advertising, through Jim, or at all? Also, that's not what straw man means. I hear people use that term all of the time, but rarely correctly.

a. The motives of Willis to get out of this particular line of business or to spread FUD should be asked to Willis itself. however, since they blatantly mixed facts and figures in an attempt to assign blame to others for their decisions in the email forwarded by Jim, I doubt you'd ever going to get a honest answer.

b. You're absolutely correct about using the wrong type of logical fallacy, i should have indicated that Jim used an argument ad hominem rather than a straw man argument.

---------- Post added October 12th, 2014 at 02:39 PM ----------

33 years ago I'm sure Self Publishing a Perry Mason Novel would have seemed like a stupid and unheard of thing.

Whether you agree with the means of publishing, I bought an electronic copy of Jim's books when he published.... and he didn't even have to kill any trees in the process of getting it in front of my eyeballs and into my brain.

I paid him via Paypal. You see, real money... real quick.

I'm sure 33 years ago you would have told me I'm stupid for not sending him a personal check (paper), putting it in an stamped envelope (more paper), sending it via USPS (fossil fuel), making him take it to his bank(more fossil fuel), requiring him to box up his book(paper, more paper), send it back to me via USPS (more fossil fuel) and then finally 2 weeks later.... I have a book!

FWW, one of the biggest authors of this last year or so is a Self Publishing Author.

Self-publishing to cut the middle man for an established author is generally a business decision. Self-publishing for a first-time author with no professional experience in the field is most likely determined by the fact that no established publisher would consider the material worth publishing. Medium of distribution is irrelevant.

---------- Post added October 12th, 2014 at 02:57 PM ----------

I am a PADI MSDT (also a instructor up to CD with other agencies), are you claiming that I have only 25 certifications on record? Plus, in my observations over the last 20 years as a dive instructor, I am much more impressed by a PADI MSDT than one that is hell bent on becoming a Master Instructor, I have seen VERY few that didn't cut corners and turn themselves into a diver mill (the dive version of a puppy mill with all the bad that implies).

In this context, I'm talking about the inaccuracies of the Willis rep, and the minimum bar to obtain the credentials. To obtain MSDT the minimum is to issue 25 diver certifications and pay for at least 5 diver specialty instructor certifications - as we all know, the diver certifications can be 2 for each Open Water student (1 for Scuba Diver and 1 for Open Water Scuba Diver). To obtain Master Instructor is necessary to issue at least 150 certifications at different levels, including Pro levels, CPR and Specialties, have attended further education, and been an instructor for at least two years - it means that a PADI MI must be more qualified in the PADI system (than a MSDT) to obtain the rating.
Implying that a MSDT is a MI seems, when combined with a misleading use of PADI statistics and numbers, would indicate a concerted effort to mislead the reader about the effective level of PADI proficiency by the specific attorney.

Having said that, based on your statement, you seem quite critical about the PADI Instructor credential system - to be coherent with your system of beliefs, I would suggest you either have an informed conversation with PADI about it or resign from it, rather than making disparaging remarks about other members.