Parents sue Boy Scouts for 2011 negligence death

[Wookie]

I know many instructors like this, it takes them 30 or 40 dives to complete a rescue class because they can't stop listening to the sound of their own voice when retelling horror diving stories and adding a personal touch of color to the material.

It's ok, there are lots of the other kind of instructor out there too, the kind who teach the bare minimums and wonder why their students suck, and send them on to dive operators who wonder why their customers suck, the same folks who go on to be sucky instructors who get their DSD's dead in a mud hole. I see them at their IE, drowning their rescue dummies and passing anyway.

 

[flots am]

Why would they have come up alone? To have a chat? The report sounds like it came straight from the prosecutor's desk.

It really doesn't matter. It's never, ever OK to leave non-divers alone underwater.

And even though I know it's done every day, I can't imagine what kind of brass balls it takes to bring non-divers out into open water. That's what the shallow end of the pool is for.

15 years ago when I was teaching DSD's, you had to go to the pool or be in "pool like conditions"
. . .

To me, pool like conditions are found in a pool.

Yeah, pretty much. My definition of "pool-like" is "4' deep with concrete walls and two guys blocking the drop off to the deep end"

It makes me crazy when I see people doing things that "meet standards" while guaranteeing that problems can't be safely handled.

There doesn't seem to be enough "what happens if . . . " going on before professionals plan these events.

flots.

---------- Post added October 6th, 2014 at 09:46 AM ----------

If two bolts and the instructor has not been able to stop them, the instructor has already failed to be in control. If the instructor chases them, must be a keyboard instructor. As any instructor would know, once the student has *bolted* and is outside of immediate control, the casualty of injury at the surface cannot be mitigated by chasing - what is done is done. Leaving unattended uncertified students alone at the bottom is unexcusable - even in horrible visibility, since a DSD is done exclusively in daylight, it's much easier to see the silhoutte of the divers above than of those below, thus providing higher degree of situation control by bringing the other students to the surface than any other course of action.

(bold mine)

Wow. That's scary.

A student that bolts will probably arrive at the surface OK, but how long that remains the case depends entirely on how long it takes for someone to be there to assist. Panic and drowning is pretty sure thing after a very short amount of time. That's why a low ratio and surface support is essential in open water when dealing students, and DSD should be in a pool.

When a student breaches the surface in OW, there should be someone waiting there.

The problem isn't "who do you chase and who do you leave", the problem is that the dive was planned to even allow that decision.

edit: Planned failures and "accidental" completely avoidable deaths just seem to be a hot button for me. I'll be quiet now and just leave this video here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCeD2gF9jUo

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

There doesn't seem to be enough "what happens if . . . " going on before professionals plan these events.

If you planned for that, we would never do anything, because even in the safest setting something can and eventually will go wrong!! You can never plan out everything.

I know this is totally off subject, but should they get rid of snuba also, it seems to be a bit more dangerous than DSD

 

[Wookie]

If you planned for that, we would never do anything, because even in the safest setting something can and eventually will go wrong!! You can never plan out everything.

I know this is totally off subject, but should they get rid of snuba also, it seems to be a bit more dangerous than DSD

I'd like to see your data on SNUBA injuries vs DSD injuries.

I spent years in the Navy teaching 18 year olds how to run a nuclear reactor. I approach introductory classes (and indeed, all scuba) the same way I approach operating a reactor. You plan for one equipment failure compounded by 1 operator failure, and assume there were no procedural failures. This is done because, as you say, you'd never dare start up a reactor plant with 18 year old operators if you considered every failure or combination out there.

In this case there was a procedural failure (allowing 4:1 DSD) with an operator failure (failure to control student) and no equipment failure which resulted in a fatality. In any other industry on earth, the procedures would be re-written to prevent this from happening again. Only where corporate interests override the interests of safety because of fear of litigation is strong does the root cause of the problem loudly proclaim their right to be right. Well, that and politics. Had this been a fracking accident or Bopal like release or a TMI incident, the public (scuba instructors in this case) would be clamoring to get the procedures made safer.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I'd like to see your data on SNUBA injuries vs DSD injuries.

I spent years in the Navy teaching 18 year olds how to run a nuclear reactor. I approach introductory classes (and indeed, all scuba) the same way I approach operating a reactor. You plan for one equipment failure compounded by 1 operator failure, and assume there were no procedural failures. This is done because, as you say, you'd never dare start up a reactor plant with 18 year old operators if you considered every failure or combination out there.

In this case there was a procedural failure (allowing 4:1 DSD) with an operator failure (failure to control student) and no equipment failure which resulted in a fatality. In any other industry on earth, the procedures would be re-written to prevent this from happening again. Only where corporate interests override the interests of safety because of fear of litigation is strong does the root cause of the problem loudly proclaim their right to be right. Well, that and politics. Had this been a fracking accident or Bopal like release or a TMI incident, the public (scuba instructors in this case) would be clamoring to get the procedures made safer.

Don't need the data, just like according to some here DSD is an accident waiting to happen, and has happen (Like no accidents ever happen if you're certified) snuba would be an accident waiting to happen.

The books are full of procedures to prevent accidents, and more are getting added everyday, why? because accidents keep happening because we can't think of every possible scenario. and it was 3 dsd to 1 instructor. As long there is DSD whether it be in a pool or on a shallow dive there will be accidents. But this wasn't an accident this was an instructor that made a drastic MISTAKE that caused someone their life. He should have never left the to 2 scouts to attend to what ever problem the scoutmaster was having.

 

[flots am]

If you planned for that, we would never do anything, because even in the safest setting something can and eventually will go wrong!! You can never plan out everything.

You can't plan for "everything" but you can certainly plan for a "something". The specifics don't really matter. Something happened that split the group up and a little planning would have turned a fatality into an interesting dive.

If you have one instructor and two students underwater and one student takes off, you suddenly have a choice of which one you leave alone. Neither possible answer is correct because the student that took off may need help, but if you do that, the student you leave may need help.

The solution is to plan for a "something" by having two staff members on the dive so neither student needs to be left alone.

This would easily handle a bolting student or pretty much any other reasonably probable emergency, without leaving anybody alone, even if there were 4 or 6 students on the dive.

One instructor goes up, the other stays. Everybody is safe and happy. Anything else is a guaranteed problem.

There are few things that scare me more than seeing an individual distressed student pop up with nobody nearby.

flots.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

You can't plan for "everything" but you can certainly plan for a "something". The specifics don't really matter. Something happened that split the group up and a little planning would have turned a fatality into an interesting dive.

If you have one instructor and two students underwater and one student takes off, you suddenly have a choice of which one you leave alone. Neither possible answer is correct because the student that took off may need help, but if you do that, the student you leave may need help.

The solution is to plan for a "something" by having two staff members on the dive so neither student needs to be left alone.

This would easily handle a bolting student or pretty much any other reaonably probable emergency, without leaving anybody alone, even if there were 4 or 6 students on the dive.

One instructor goes up, the other stays. Everybody is safe and happy.

flots.

One student bolt for the surface, but you being the instructor, your training says a controlled accent, but you bolt after him. You end up in the hospital. Now what? Like I said earlier my safety training tells me not to bolt after him. And I'm talking more than scuba training. All have stated the same thing. don't become a victim when trying to save someone else.

If I was an instructor, had 2 students and one bolted for the surface, there wouldn't be a choice to make, me and the student on the bottom would make a controlled accent and deal with the other when we surfaced.

 

[demed]

The problem isn't "who do you chase and who do you leave", the problem is that the dive was planned to even allow that decision.

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y!
the instructor had already committed a number of cardinal sins that compounded generated a fatal outcome
There are no standards to protect from bad judgment

---------- Post added October 6th, 2014 at 01:24 PM ----------

It's ok, there are lots of the other kind of instructor out there too, the kind who teach the bare minimums and wonder why their students suck, and send them on to dive operators who wonder why their customers suck, the same folks who go on to be sucky instructors who get their DSD's dead in a mud hole. I see them at their IE, drowning their rescue dummies and passing anyway.

Passing an instructor examination from any agency with flying colors does not guarantee that same person will not ever take a shortcut like in this case. this person would have a lost a student even if they were handcuffed in an inflatable pool

 

[flots am]

One student bolt for the surface, but you being the instructor, your training says a controlled accent, but you bolt after him. You end up in the hospital. Now what?

"Bolt after him" from where? A platform @ 20'? That's a risk I'm willing to take.

A 60'/minute ascent, which was standard in the "old days" from 20' takes 20 seconds. Even if the panicked student doubled that, a safe ascent leaves the student on the surface alone for less than 10 seconds.

This is just another planning issue. If having an uncertified diver pop to the surface makes the dive dangerous for the remaining divers, the dive was planned poorly.

You have to plan for this stuff because sooner or later, it's going to happen.

Planning is the difference between hoping that nothing bad happens and making sure it doesn't.

While nothing can be made 100% safe, this is really low-hanging fruit. It doesn't take The Amazing Kreskin to anticipate that with a bunch of people who have never been underwater, that one might panic, and plan the dive accordingly to eliminate the risks that can be eliminated and minimize those that can't.

flots.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

"Bolt after him" from where? A platform @ 20'? That's a risk I'm willing to take.

A 60'/minute ascent, which was standard in the "old days" from 20' takes 20 seconds. Even if the panicked student doubled that, a safe ascent leaves the student on the surface alone for less than 10 seconds.

This is just another planning issue. If having an uncertified diver pop to the surface make the dive dangerous for the remaining divers, the dive was planned poorly.

You have to plan for this stuff because sooner or later, it's going to happen.

Planning is the difference between hoping that nothing bad happens and making sure it doesn't.

While nothing can be made 100% safe, this is really low-hanging fruit. It doesn't take The Amazing Kreskin to anticipate that with a bunch of people who have never been underwater, that one might panic, and plan the dive accordingly to eliminate the risks that can be eliminated and minimize those that can't.

flots.

We're talking DSD and having seen several done, I've never seen one on a platform, nor have I ever seen a platform. All were done in the ocean with a 2:1 ratio, with pool sessions first. so you may be bolting from 30 or 40 feet. And even using your scenario, how long would it take to tell the other student lets go up. The scouts were not on a platform, they were on a line. Had they stayed on the line they would probably still be alive, but to leave 2 un-certified teens in the water for a few seconds and expect them to do that was wrong.