Parents sue Boy Scouts for 2011 negligence death

[Scott]

I know you're being the sarcastic, but minus the wait a minute, that would be the calm rational thing to do. The 2 bolting for the surface have already put themselves in danger, no use putting the others in danger by leaving them alone.

It sounds like you are OK with the two bolting to the surface and you'll deal with the casualty or injury on the surface when you get there with the other two?
What happens when one or both on the bottom have issues on the ascent, or have separated and now you have who knows what on the surface and one or two missing divers?
That would scare the bejeezus out of me.
The rational thing to do would be evaluate the conditions and have a maximum of two. Issues arise and everyone goes to the surface with the instructor in direct control.

 

[Wookie]

I know you're being the sarcastic, but minus the wait a minute, that would be the calm rational thing to do. The 2 bolting for the surface have already put themselves in danger, no use putting the others in danger by leaving them alone.

Back to my original stance, there is no way to make an introductory course safe unless the ratio is 1:1 or more than one:2.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

It sounds like you are OK with the two bolting to the surface and you'll deal with the casualty or injury on the surface when you get there with the other two?
What happens when one or both on the bottom have issues on the ascent, or have separated and now you have who knows what on the surface and one or two missing divers?
That would scare the bejeezus out of me.
The rational thing to do would be evaluate the conditions and have a maximum of two. Issues arise and everyone goes to the surface with the instructor in direct control.

Which should have also been done in this situation, the number wasn't the problem, it was leaving 2 DSD divers at the bottom. If you have more than 1:1 ratio, there's always the risk. With 2 DSD 1 bolts for the surface, the usual way to stop them is to bolt after them, now instead of one at risk, there are 3 at risk, the one bolting, the instructor bolting after them and the DSD left on the bottom. For me, my years of safety training would kick in, "don't become a casualty when trying to rescue someone else."

And Yes, I am okay with dealing with what's on the surface when I get there.

I was replying to the bolting scenario, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. The instructor just left the 2 scouts to go take care of what ever issues the scoutmaster was having. That was the mistake, not the number of divers.

 

[boulderjohn]

Back to my original stance, there is no way to make an introductory course safe unless the ratio is 1:1 or more than one:2.

I agree. I teach under those conditions every summer. I would not put myself in a position of having to take care of 4 people like that. Neither of the shops I have worked for here would allow it if I wanted to. If I find myself in those conditions without an assistant, then I work with no more than 2 while the rest remain on shore. When I discussed it with PADI, that is what they suggested I do as well.

Again, that seems pretty obvious to me. It seems pretty obvious to all the other instructors I know who work around here, too.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It is more obvious to the local instructors here that you just don't do discovers in open water. Pool only and no more than two per instructor with adults. Kids it's 1 to 1.

Requiring rather than just suggesting may have prevented this.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

It is more obvious to the local instructors here that you just don't do discovers in open water. Pool only and no more than two per instructor with adults. Kids it's 1 to 1.

Requiring rather than just suggesting may have prevented this.

It wasn't stated here, but I wonder was there any pool work before going out in the lake. I've seen a few where they do a pool session first, and if the person is comfortable they will take them out on a shallow dive.

 

[Wookie]

It wasn't stated here, but I wonder was there any pool work before going out in the lake. I've seen a few where they do a pool session first, and if the person is comfortable they will take them out on a shallow dive.

15 years ago when I was teaching DSD's, you had to go to the pool or be in "pool like conditions", which brings me back to an earlier point. Some will disagree with me, but I don't feel that any training agency objectively evaluates an instructor candidate's ability to make that determination. Is 15 feet of visibility in a mud hole "pool like conditions"? Maybe you can only see the wall 15 feet away in a pool, but the pool water itself is 100 feet of vis. Maybe you have a salt water pool, but the different buoyancy characteristics of salt and fresh water are relatively well documented.

To me, pool like conditions are found in a pool.

 

[Scott]

It wasn't stated here, but I wonder was there any pool work before going out in the lake. I've seen a few where they do a pool session first, and if the person is comfortable they will take them out on a shallow dive.

I can speak from experience with the location and program. There are no facilities on site to conduct a pool session prior to going to the lake.


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[boulderjohn]

From the standards:

Section Three
CONFINED WATER
• Conduct the briefing (see Section Two - Knowledge
Development)
• Help participants with their equipment.
• For a pool experience, have participants practice BCD
inflation and deflation at the surface in shallow water.
• For confined open water, have participants complete all
Skill Performance Requirements.
• Supervise participants as they swim around underwater
in shallow water. When comfortable, take participants to
deeper water as appropriate while monitoring comfort and
air consumption.
• Conduct a debriefing and encourage participants to
move on to a PADI certification course.

Skill Performance Requirements
Have participants complete the following skills in shallow
water:
Exception: Only BCD inflation/deflation required for pool-only experience.
• Breathing underwater
• Regulator clearing
• Regulator recovery
• Mask clearing
• Equalization techniques
• Inflate and deflate a BCD at the surface
If participants will go on an open water dive, and shallow
water for skills practice is inaccessible, an instructor
conducts the skills session from a boat, dock or other
surface support station by using a descent line, horizontal
bar or platform that is within 2 metres/6 feet of the surface.
The ratio is 1:1 when using the descent line option.

 

[demed]

Perhaps you could explain how a training agency (any training agency) assesses a new instructor's judgement. To what standard is that judgement assessed? I've watched a few IEs, and I've not seen the "Instructor's Judgement" evaluation, but then, I'm not an Instructor Examiner.

For a training agency to leave something as ambiguous as "in reduced visibility, the instructor must reduce his training ratio to _____ is inviting the kind of trouble we're seeing in this instance. PADI mass produces instructors. None have their judgement evaluated. Therefore, a system of standards that can be followed in varying environmental conditions must be established. i.e. (Blue Bold) In reduced visibility (15 feet or less) the instructor must reduce all introductory scuba lesson ratios (OW, DSD, DS) to a ratio not to exceed 2:1 or 1:1 or 4:2 or whatever. Anything else is inadequate guidance for the instructor.

Wow! It sounds like you have identified an unassailable niche market for a new agency so prescriptive to make instructors' judgment redundant and solve all the problems for insurance and shops. Please start drafting these standards for a good sized curriculum and send me a draft when ready. I'd love to use drones and bots to teach instead of unpredictable humans.

---------- Post added October 5th, 2014 at 09:50 PM ----------

It sounds like you are OK with the two bolting to the surface and you'll deal with the casualty or injury on the surface when you get there with the other two?
What happens when one or both on the bottom have issues on the ascent, or have separated and now you have who knows what on the surface and one or two missing divers?
That would scare the bejeezus out of me.
The rational thing to do would be evaluate the conditions and have a maximum of two. Issues arise and everyone goes to the surface with the instructor in direct control.

If two bolts and the instructor has not been able to stop them, the instructor has already failed to be in control. If the instructor chases them, must be a keyboard instructor. As any instructor would know, once the student has *bolted* and is outside of immediate control, the casualty of injury at the surface cannot be mitigated by chasing - what is done is done. Leaving unattended uncertified students alone at the bottom is unexcusable - even in horrible visibility, since a DSD is done exclusively in daylight, it's much easier to see the silhoutte of the divers above than of those below, thus providing higher degree of situation control by bringing the other students to the surface than any other course of action.
If the students are surfacing at a regular ascent rate and the instructor cannot stop them, he\she has failed to be in control, and if he\she cannot alert and bring the other students up in short order, he\she has failed to be in control again.
however one flips the story, the instructor has failed to be in control, has failed not leave divers unattended, has failed to assess student readiness, and has failed to assess local conditions. After we address this, we can talk about standards.

---------- Post added October 5th, 2014 at 09:51 PM ----------

Back to my original stance, there is no way to make an introductory course safe unless the ratio is 1:1 or more than one:2.

I know many instructors like this, it takes them 30 or 40 dives to complete a rescue class because they can't stop listening to the sound of their own voice when retelling horror diving stories and adding a personal touch of color to the material.

---------- Post added October 5th, 2014 at 09:55 PM ----------

I agree. I teach under those conditions every summer. I would not put myself in a position of having to take care of 4 people like that. Neither of the shops I have worked for here would allow it if I wanted to. If I find myself in those conditions without an assistant, then I work with no more than 2 while the rest remain on shore. When I discussed it with PADI, that is what they suggested I do as well.

Again, that seems pretty obvious to me. It seems pretty obvious to all the other instructors I know who work around here, too.

*under those conditions* makes an entirely different and specific argument. But i believe it's a detail that might get lost by many.