Parents sue Boy Scouts for 2011 negligence death

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Where did you hear that the instructor used 35 lbs of weight? It seems like a poor strategy to post and post and then be silent when a question outside of the narrative is asked.

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2014 at 07:04 PM ----------

I think I'd be pissed if that was my lawyer.
 
Where did you hear that the instructor used 35 lbs of weight? It seems like a poor strategy to post and post and then be silent when a question outside of the narrative is asked.

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2014 at 07:04 PM ----------

I think I'd be pissed if that was my lawyer.

Two sources - which is why I decided to pose the question.

One is a dive shop operator I respect (but disagree with - a lot) the other is an attorney inside the insurance industry.

If an attorney had the temerity to risk his client's case by posting on a public blog while a case was active and set for trial - he deserves whatever consequence comes of his decision to post....

But he better be sure he doesn't get caught with disseminating half the facts to skew perspectives.... and then when he is called out he better answer the question or it's clear he lacks both integrity and a good case.

Guess we know the answers here... Day 4 no response but he has responded elsewhere since....
 
Where else did he post?
 
Jim, Omission clearly stated that he has posted elsewhere...
 
And still no response from counsel about the defective BCD nor the weight on the drowned student.... These are objective FACTS - so why not fess up subfiend - consider yourself CALLED OUT.

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2014 at 11:16 AM ----------

I hope EVERYONE on this blog has taken note of the failure to respond to the issues I raised. I trust all of you now see the issue for what it really was.

Hi Mr. O,

I was traveling home from DEMA yesterday and I spent today getting caught up, not on the internet. To answer your questions, all three of the divers that were in the water have testified that: (1) everyone was neutrally buoyant and not overweighted (regardless of the amount of lead used); and (2) the BCD was not defective nor leaking during the dive -- instead, it appears to have been damaged during transportation to SLC on the day after it was recovered.

I am sorry to disappoint you. You seem to want to parrot the PADI party line, which is not always consistent with the facts as testified in the case. Could this have something to do with the PADI Member Agreement that YOU signed, which prohibits you from saying anything publicly that PADI considers disparaging or that might discredit PADI (Paragraph 5 of the PADI Membership Agreement)? Just asking. You seem to reuse a lot of the same hyperbole that was stated by PADI's reps on the show floor, which is decidedly different from the facts as testified to by the witnesses during their depositions.

For example, the father and son dive team were deposed in LV on Wednesday. They testified repeatedly that the divers were all neutrally buoyant and the equipment was not leaking and working fine. For you to rely on hearsay from sources that weren't at the depositions or have not read the transcripts is irresponsible. For you to "Call me out" and claim that PADI's lawyers are taking the high road because they are not posting here, when you are obviously shilling for them, is transparent and actually kind of silly. I am glad you are taking such an interest in the case, but it is worth noting that you are contractually obligated not to say anything disparaging about PADI, lest you risk being excommunicated like the instructor here. So let's just see where the evidence takes the case and the readers can make up their own minds without opinion testimony from you or me. Okay? Have a great week.
 
Last edited:
Hi Mr. O,

I was traveling home from DEMA yesterday and I spent today getting caught up, not on the internet. To answer your questions, all three of the divers that were in the water have testified that: (1) everyone was neutrally buoyant and not overweighted (regardless of the amount of lead used); and (2) the BCD was not defective nor leaking during the dive -- instead, it appears to have been damaged during transportation to SLC on the day after it was recovered.

I am sorry to disappoint you. You seem to want to parrot the PADI party line, which is not always consistent with the facts as testified in the case. Could this have something to do with the PADI Member Agreement that YOU signed, which prohibits you from saying anything publicly that PADI considers disparaging or that might discredit PADI (Paragraph 5 of the PADI Membership Agreement)? Just asking. You seem to reuse a lot of the same hyperbole that was stated by PADI's reps on the show floor, which is decidedly different from the facts as testified to by the witnesses during their depositions.

For example, the father and son dive team were deposed in LV on Wednesday. They testified repeatedly that the divers were all neutrally buoyant and the equipment was not leaking and working fine. For you to rely on hearsay from sources that weren't at the depositions or have not read the transcripts is irresponsible. For you to "Call me out" and claim that PADI's lawyers are taking the high road because they are not posting here, when you are obviously shilling for them, is transparent and actually kind of silly. I am glad you are taking such an interest in the case, but it is worth noting that you are contractually obligated not to say anything disparaging about PADI, lest you risk being excommunicated like the instructor here. So let's just see where the evidence takes the case and the readers can make up their own minds without opinion testimony from you or me. Okay? Have a great week.

Your instructor/client was tossed for committing no less than 5 standards violations and killing a kid in his charge. Not for speaking his mind on the Internet. But If I do the same, and kill a kid because I can't follow standards or exercise sound judgment in assessing a situation, PADI should kick me to the curb.

I see you did have time to post in other threads on scuba board though....

But these are Interesting, carefully parsed responses....

A) "Regardless of the amount of weight" - so IS it true the youth was in 35 pounds of lead?

What was his height and weight? Was it a 5mm wetsuit? Please tell me how 35 pounds is properly weighted in any suit for a youth.

Please do tell.


B) "the BCD appears to have been damaged AFTER the dive"- well that's interesting - who said it was damaged after and not before? An expert? Yours? Or your client the instructor... Because we know we can't ask the child who was wearing it.

Since I have such lousy information, how did I know the bcd was broken and the student had 35 pounds of lead?



Anyhow...

Maybe I'm taking an interest because in my 15 years practicing law I have never seen a party attorney engaging in public blog discussions of an active case mid discovery - something that is fraught with perils and a REALLY bad idea. Some jurisdictions actually prohibit such conduct - I guess Utah isn't one of them.

Moreover, the fact that you have only done so only AFTER a training agency sends out a highly questionable letter right before DEMA - and a discussion starts where actual instructors are pointing out the shortcomings in your clients position, do you jump in.

If anything it smells like YOU are the one working a shill my friend. I have no dog in the fight, but clearly you do.

My analysis is free from the bias of your role as advocate. You'd think an attorney would see that....

Res ipso locutor.....
 
Your instructor/client was tossed for committing no less than 5 standards violations and killing a kid in his charge. Not for speaking his mind on the Internet. But If I do the same, and kill a kid because I can't follow standards or exercise sound judgment in assessing a situation, PADI should kick me to the curb.

I see you did have time to post in other threads on scuba board though....

But these are Interesting, carefully parsed responses....

A) "Regardless of the amount of weight" - so IS it true the youth was in 35 pounds of lead?

What was his height and weight? Was it a 5mm wetsuit? Please tell me how 35 pounds is properly weighted in any suit for a youth.

Please do tell.


B) "the BCD appears to have been damaged AFTER the dive"- well that's interesting - who said it was damaged after and not before? An expert? Yours? Or your client the instructor... Because we know we can't ask the child who was wearing it.

Since I have such lousy information, how did I know the bcd was broken and the student had 35 pounds of lead?



Anyhow...

Maybe I'm taking an interest because in my 15 years practicing law I have never seen a party attorney engaging in public blog discussions of an active case mid discovery - something that is fraught with perils and a REALLY bad idea. Some jurisdictions actually prohibit such conduct - I guess Utah isn't one of them.

Moreover, the fact that you have only done so only AFTER a training agency sends out a highly questionable letter right before DEMA - and a discussion starts where actual instructors are pointing out the shortcomings in your clients position, do you jump in.

If anything it smells like YOU are the one working a shill my friend. I have no dog in the fight, but clearly you do.

My analysis is free from the bias of your role as advocate. You'd think an attorney would see that....

Res ipso locutor.....

Thanks for your comments and questions. As I said in the beginning, I am not going to try the case here and you don't seem to be too interested in the facts, so I am done responding to your questions. Your comments and opinions speak for themselves, and people are free to judge whether you have a dog in the fight or not. Personally, I believe that you do.

Unlike you, I have been open from the beginning about my role and where I get my information, and I stick to the facts in the case and the allegations in the pleadings in my comments. Where I have stated opinions, I have identified them as such. Read the rules and you will see that this is permissible. Or don't. That's up to you, too.

Meanwhile, the facts are here and people are free to discuss them and form their own opinions, as many have. That was the whole point of this thread. The point is not to sweep the discussion about safety and standards under the rug.

Anyway, have a Happy Thanksgiving!
 
Maybe I'm taking an interest because in my 15 years practicing law I have never seen a party attorney engaging in public blog discussions of an active case mid discovery - something that is fraught with perils and a REALLY bad idea. Some jurisdictions actually prohibit such conduct - I guess Utah isn't one of them.

Moreover, the fact that you have only done so only AFTER a training agency sends out a highly questionable letter right before DEMA - and a discussion starts where actual instructors are pointing out the shortcomings in your clients position, do you jump in.

If anything it smells like YOU are the one working a shill my friend. I have no dog in the fight, but clearly you do.

My analysis is free from the bias of your role as advocate. You'd think an attorney would see that....

If this was my attorney, I'd be freaking out about now.

However he isn't, and the entire thing is quite fascinating. This is a much more detailed view than we usually get.

There is a public benefit though. Regardless of any legal maneuvering, it brings the sufficiency (or lack of sufficiency) of standards into full public view, where otherwise, the issue could easily end up buried with a settlement, and an NDA.

Res ipso locutor.....

I always found the phrase fascinating, because it's completely false unless you understand Latin, in which case it's completely true.

flots.
 
Last edited:
Res ipso locutor.....

I DID study Latin. Did you spell that correctly? In the UK, I was taught "Res ipsa loquitur". Maybe lawyers write it differently in this country? :D
 
Back
Top Bottom