PADI Trimix

[Lost Yooper]

I appreciate your thoughts, ND, but is there really anything down there worth the risk? Is it worth putting these students at risk by giving them a false sense of security when they take such classes? This attitude that narcosis affects people differently maybe true, but the fact is that it affects everyone whether you feel it or not. You cannot learn to deal with narcosis or safely dive deep on air reliably ("reliably" is the key here).

If the agencies would simply ingrain their students that 100' is max on air for any type of diving, they'd actually be doing something valuable (though I'd prefer not see air used at all). To put students at such obvious and unneeded risk has me totally awestruck. In the end, it has to be up to the diver whether s/he is willing to accept the risk. This is fine as far as I'm concerned, but unfortunately, the agencies are not letting them in on all of the risks. This is bad for the industry as a whole, IMO.



Mike

 

[nordicdiver]

Lost Yooper

We are all intitled to our opinion.!

You seem to think that no one should be aloud to do any air dives
below 100' & it is unsafe to do so.

I don't happen to agree, & I know a lot of very skilled technical
divers that have loads of experiance that dive deep air & tri-mix.

They also seem to have one other thing in common, They think
for themselves, Some of them are even GUE trained.

As we all know, That combanation Is hard to find these days.

Also please tell me what color the sky is in your world.!

Just Kidding ! I respect you even though you are wrong.!

Dive Safe Nordic Diver

 

[Lost Yooper]

So you believe divers can be trained to reliably deal with narcosis, and this training can be done on a mass scale? Physiology and science tell us different, but what does that matter, eh .

As for the color of the sky in my world, I'd say it's the color of money -- green.

Take care

Mike

BTW, it's not a question of being allowed or not, but rather agencies giving students a false sense of security regarding unsafe dive pratices.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by nordicdiver
I don't happen to agree, & I know a lot of very skilled technical
divers that have loads of experiance that dive deep air & tri-mix.

They also seem to have one other thing in common, They think
for themselves, Some of them are even GUE trained.

Nordicdiver,

And who are these GUE trained divers that do deep air....

And for that matter who here on this board is actually GUE trained? Hmmmm???

Let's see if he agrees with you about deep air.

 

[VTWarrenG]

Just ignore nordicdiver... it's really not worth your time to debate with people who speak that way.

- Warren

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
I appreciate your thoughts, ND, but is there really anything down there worth the risk?

Obviously, the answer varies according to the individual. Again, the question each individual must answer for him/herself is whether the risk is acceptable.

I don't teach open water students that diving is safe. Never will. Rather I teach that the comparative risk is something you must come to terms with if you want to dive. Same lesson applies to any diving.

So is diving to 110ft on air an acceptable risk? For some people yes, and for some people no. 120? 130? 165? Yes or no - you decide for yourself.

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
Even Karl Reeves of PADI's Tech program has an artical out there where he talks about the dangers of deep air past 130'. These guys know the story, and it seems like someone within these organizations, who has a lot of pull, is making the decisions based on money and demand not ultimate safety.

I suppose that the level of demand is purely comparative. For what its worth, the money apparently isn't there. At the most recent PADI member forum in Atlanta, it was made clear that the financial return would have been far greater if the time and money used to develop TecRec had been spent elsewhere. Apparently it will take quite some time for the TecRec program to recover the development costs.

My opinion is that TecRec was launched as a first small step in establishing DSAT as a PADI affiliated agency for technical diving. Making money will have to wait for later.

 

[nordicdiver]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
So you believe divers can be trained to reliably deal with narcosis,

Lost Yopper

We have a difference of opinion,

What I base my beliefs on is the diving that I have done. Not
just the training that I have paid for. You may recall that I never
said tri-mix was not better. I said I do both, That means for me
there is a time & place for it, !

If you don't want to dive deep air yourself, Thats fine.!
No one is forcing you too.

One thing that always amazes me about this issue, Is that many
people can't or refuse, to see both sides of the deep air Issue.

I was hoping that there was someone on this board with enough
experiance as well as training to see both sides.!

But I guess there is not.! So many closed minds!

Dive Safe Nordic Diver

 

[nordicdiver]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug


Nordicdiver,

And who are these GUE trained divers that do deep air....

And for that matter who here on this board is actually GUE trained? Hmmmm???

Uncle Pug Why do I get the feeling that If I told you who they
were, The first thing you would do is run to G. I with this information. Hmmmmm?

As for who is GUE trained, I know of one. How many do you
know of.?

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by nordicdiver

Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Uncle Pug Why do I get the feeling that If I told you who they
were, The first thing you would do is run to G. I with this information. Hmmmmm?

As for who is GUE trained, I know of one. How many do you
know of.?

Run to who?
Why would anyone care?
Are you GUE trained Nordicdiver?

 

[Lost Yooper]

Nordic Diver,

I do understand both sides. There are those who believe deep air is safe and those who know it isn't. Narcosis isn't a belief, it's a fact. I'm not closed minded, but rather have a set of facts sitting on my lap that says deep air is physiologically dangerous to divers and can't be reliably dealt with or learned. I, too, have more than my fair share of deep air experience, and, like I said before, never had an inkling of a problem with narcosis -- not once. I, too, once believed that narcosis could be reliably dealt with, but that is not the case at all.

You disagree with me on this one? Don't sweat it. There's a long list of people on here that disagree with me a on a variety of subjects . So what? If a lurker reads my posts, they'll get the impression that deep air is inherently dangerous. Maybe I'll influence their decision on their next course -- deep air or trimix.

Drew,

So, what was/is PADI's thinking here? Why don't they discontinue deep air if it's not a money maker? Do they think trimix will be a money maker? I heard somewhere that only like 5% of all certified divers go on to tech stuff. It seems odd to me that they would offer a deep air course which they know is backwards and unsafe and not make money on it. What would their motives be? I'm getting an even worse impression than I had prior to hearing that .

I agree with you that diving, regardless of the type, requires risk assesment and acceptance. The problem is that the agencies are decieving their students into thinking deep air is reliably safe when it is not -- and they know it. If someone knows the real risks of deep air, accepts those risks, and dives anyway, well... good luck to them. If they die doing it (which happens a lot), then they leave an ugly spot on the whole industry.

Mike