PADI Trimix

[neil]

Originally posted by roakey

I have to disagree. Like some of PADI's other classes, they have an adequate one, not a good one. If they had a good one they'd be teaching you to dive standard mixes rather than so-called "best mix."
Roak

I have to disagree also. Best mix may not give huge advantages over the standard 32 & 36% mixes, but the theory is sound, and to rate the course as "adequate" just because it's taught is ridiculous, IMO. However, I do agree that the PADI course is merely adequate, but for other reasons. I'd rather teach the NAUI course any day.
Neil

 

[MikeFerrara]

First of all using standard mixes has some advantages for a group like the WKPP. And anyone cane benifit from it to a degree as it makes it easier to memorize schedules and so on. There are advantages when banking gasses also. I mix my own, don't bank and sometimes use a "best mix" at least for a bottom gas. The PADI EANx course teaches both. The student has standard tables available for 32 and 36 but is taught to calculate the dive for best mix also. I don't use WKPP standard mixes. Hell, even if I did they might change them and not tell me. Then I would be rendered unDIR and not even know it!

GUE can set a max END of 100ft but... Any rec diver who goes on vacation and dives will break that. DM's take people deep and in overheads. Not only do they do this without He, they do it without applicable training even for the DM. Even mixing my own without half a dozen sets of doubles or a portable blending station I can't always get He. Mix will not be readily available until there is a market. GUE can say max END 100ft but PADI may be the only one with the ability to make it happen.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
Mix will not be readily available until there is a market. GUE can say max END 100ft but PADI may be the only one with the ability to make it happen.

Good point, Mike. If they're going to do it, let's hope they do it right. I am more than apprehensive about the whole thing, but I'd rather see them on mix than on deep air, I guess. At least they'll be able to think clearly WHEN problems do come up.

Mike

 

[AquaTec]

Jim

Yes I agree and remember the tooth and nail fight.

But when they were forced to accept Nitrox, we saw an industry wide change in opinion and acceptance.

as far as PADI producing good instructors, that will be instructor dependant as with all courses. I think the material will be there.

PADI and deep air .... thats a contentious issue at the best of times. hopefully they tech a shallow END when they do trimix

Standard mixs - PADI is an advocate of standard mixes, 32% & 36% which seems to be the industry standard mix.
this is such a standard along with the use of tables for these mixes. the nitrox course is not reconzied by IANTD or TDI as an equivalent for cross over. because the course is table based and not math based.

DcoRCH Padi is quite willing to train its own instructors and they do have their own set of protocals. my earlier point was that the first generation of instructors will be via crossover so yes trainned by other agencies. but the second generation will be 90% PADI

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
GUE can set a max END of 100ft but... Any rec diver who goes on vacation and dives will break that. DM's take people deep and in overheads. Not only do they do this without He, they do it without applicable training even for the DM. Even mixing my own without half a dozen sets of doubles or a portable blending station I can't always get He. Mix will not be readily available until there is a market. GUE can say max END 100ft but PADI may be the only one with the ability to make it happen.

And let us not forget that in many parts of the world, just getting your hands on a helium tank is a major logistics endeavor. The United States is blessed with one of the largest helium reserves in the natural gas deposits of Texas and Louisiana. Many destinations must import helium from the United States at quite high costs.

Due to the cost of importing helium, even PADI may be unable to create a market for these mixes in some popular diving locations. For a 160ft wreck dive in Chuuk, how many divers will pay an extra $100 for a helium mix fill when the other options are abandoning the dive or diving it on air? What if it costs $200 extra?

 

[BIGJC]

Originally posted by roakey

I have to disagree. Like some of PADI's other classes, they have an adequate one, not a good one. If they had a good one they'd be teaching you to dive standard mixes rather than so-called "best mix."

Roak

They have a good RECREATIONAL nitrox class... it teaches the most useful mixes in non deco diving....

Thats My opinion

 

[Lost Yooper]

Drew,

Then PADI should do the only right thing and tell their students, and the entire diving community, not to dive to such depths on air, rather than giving them a false sense of security in their deep air courses. Just because there's a demand for deep air diving doesn't make it right to feed it by offering classes to "train" them for it -- which can't be done. Unfortunately, asking an organization like PADI or NAUI to take a hit financially by discontinuing a high demand class like Deep Air, is like pulling teeth (or worse).

Just because there's a demand for it, doesn't make it right, IMO.

Mike

 

[jimholcomb]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
Drew,

Then PADI should do the only right thing and tell their students, and the entire diving community, not to dive to such depths on air, rather than giving them a false sense of security in their deep air courses. Just because there's a demand for deep air diving doesn't make it right to feed it by offering classes to "train" them for it -- which can't be done. Unfortunately, asking an organization like PADI or NAUI to take a hit financially by discontinuing a high demand class like Deep Air, is like pulling teeth (or worse).

Just because there's a demand for it, doesn't make it right, IMO.

Mike

I spoke with Tim O'Leary (director of NAUITEC) about six months ago. At that time he stated they were implementing the DIR philosophy in their technical operations which included MANDATING it for their technical instructors. They would be phasing out some things and adding others to their curriculum.

 

[Lost Yooper]

I never understood why NAUI went in the direction they did, Jim. I new Tim O'Leary didn't particulary care for deep air diving, and with Weinke right up there in the top bracket of the organization.... Even Karl Reeves of PADI's Tech program has an artical out there where he talks about the dangers of deep air past 130'. These guys know the story, and it seems like someone within these organizations, who has a lot of pull, is making the decisions based on money and demand not ultimate safety.

Tim O'Leary article:

http://www.naui.org/pdffiles/EvolutionToRevolution.pdf

"...(or air) is not a good breathing mixture for diving beyond 25 meters. In fact, after 4 bars of pressure, NAUI Technical Operations is recommending the use of helium to dilute both oxygen and nitrogen within the breathing mixture."

So, he obviously knows that diving deep on air isn't good, but still they offer a deep air course .

Karl Reeves artical:

http://www.skin-diver.com/departmen....asp?theID=1041

“A 130-foot limit for air diving on complex technical dives, especially overhead environment diving (wrecks, caves, etc.) is advisable. Narcosis has no place on a dive where too many variables factor into your safety.” “Even simple dives in open water using redundant life support and following principles for air supply management (i.e. not single tank, recreational rigs) is risky at 185 feet. You’d definitely be narked at this depth, so emergency procedures had better be second nature. Deeper than 185 takes you above 1.4 ata PO2, making oxygen toxicity a concern.”

This guy knows that deep air is unreliable, but doesn't know what he wants to say. Basically, he's saying if everything goes according to plan, narcosis won't kill you. Maybe he's right, but things do go wrong and things can get complicated unexpectedly -- even on "uncomplicated" dives. Why would an agency train you for a best case scenario? This is crazy.

I hope they do the right thing and help change the deep air attitude in the industry, but I'm not going to hold my breath either.

Mike

 

[nordicdiver]

Lost Yooper

I Hope you don't mind my 2 cents on this topic.

First let me say that i am Tri-Mix certafied & have been for quite
some time. I have well over 3000 loged dives & many of those
on Deep Air as well as Tri-mix.

I agree with the statement that mix is a better way to dive on
the deeper wrecks. But everyones defanition of deep is not the
same. Everyone Knows that narcosis efects everyone in
different ways, We are not all the same!

I think if someone is buzed out at 130' they better start looking
for a Tri-Mix class, Or they will have problems.

One of the things that I feel everyone Ignores in regards to Tri-Mix is that it is a logistic nightmare. Most people have no idea
the amount of time & effort it takes to go somewhere diving for
3 or 4 days & use nothing but mix.! This is why many choose to
use it only when they feel it is needed.

Just my thoughts, Dive Safe Nordic Diver