PADI Trimix

[jimholcomb]

Nordic said..."I don't happen to agree, & I know a lot of very skilled technical
divers that have loads of experiance that dive deep air & tri-mix.

They also seem to have one other thing in common, They think
for themselves, Some of them are even GUE trained. "

The number one leading cause of death amoung TRAINED cave divers is exceeding 130 air depth. That is a fact - not an opinion. This is an opinion - I would ventur to guess that the same holds true for wreck divers.

And the GUE trained people you know who still dive deep air wasted their money on the training - that's a fact as well. That is the definition of the "bad word" that everybopdy is so pissy about. A person who has been properly trained AND KNOWS a safer method and still continues to do unsafe things IS A STROKE. I'm not calling you one - I'm calling those you refer to as "GUE trained" that continue to deep air dive.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What level of narcosis is acceptable?
What tasks do I expect to perform and what level of impairment can I exhibit and still perform those tasks? Lets look at a specific task, responding to a reg free-flow. If I can, without impairment, switch regs and shut down one post in 8 sec and, with some impairment, do it in 10 sec can I still make the dive? If not, then if it takes another diver 10 sec normally he should never make the dive. The point is if the dive is well within my limits I should be able to function adequately with some impairment. If I can tolerate no impairment and you are slower than me than you can never dive. Many environmental factors can impair us. How much of one factor we will accept should be partially dependant on how much of the others we expect. Cold impairs us. Should we never dive in water colder than 70 F? Balancing the various risks in relation to one another, our ability, our buddy’s ability and the benefits of the dive is part of dive planning. Reducing all risks as much as reasonably possible should be the goal. But, what END is reasonable? My answer is a list of questions. For whom? Where? When? What is the temperature? Who is my teammate? What is the mission? What is the level of related experience? Has the mission been rehearsed? How important is the dive? I don’t see it as clear-cut and I certainly don’t want someone else to decide for me.

 

[AquaTec]

Nordic diver

Welcome to the board, as you can see if you have an opposing opinion to the these guys like to dive you will be stoned

I for one agree that the most important thing about recieving information is to know the source. I also asked warren with what experience he used to back up his so very stong statements. he never answered me. [I see he answered you, good job warren]
Now you can consider the source of who is passing on the info.

as far as "You really need to shut your trap and read a bit longer before posting and making a total idiot out of yourself. Just a hint" posted by warren. this sums up his experience he has read a lot and probably most of it right here on this board. however he still makes an idiot of himself every day [assumptions are dangerouse, bring on the attack warren]

Quote from warren "it is not the speaker that matters; what matters is what that speaker has to say. "

Just ask yourself when you were in college who would you rather teach the class, one of the students who has read the material, and would probably get a good grade on the test or the Profesor.

Deep air is a very touchy subject around here, there are certain people who will not let a discution like that take place on this board by way of ridiculing you so bad that others are afraid to jump in on the discution. I for one would like to know what people are diving, why they dive air insted of mix, etc. etc.

Yes deep air is dangerous. so I suggest that you weigh the risks envolved gather as much information as possible and then do what you feel comfortable with.

I personaly stopped diving deeper that 150 on air and I would have no problem throwing a little He into the mix if I did a dive less than 150.

The dangerouse divers are those diving deep on air without all the information. you can get a lot of it here, you just need to consider your source, and ask for credentials for their opinions.

That there is probably the nut of it all
when someone just thows out statements and opinions then people want credentials so they can better weigh the opinion.
if people throw out facts with something to back it up then you generaly look at the backup and consider the source of the back up.

for example
G3 says He for shallow deco may be good
warren says He for shallow deco may be good

we trust G3's opinion because we know his credentials
With warren we would want to know how he knows this and how can he back it up, and who created the back up.

The source of the information is the critical piece of intel

 

[VTWarrenG]

as far as "You really need to shut your trap and read a bit longer before posting and making a total idiot out of yourself. Just a hint" posted by warren. this sums up his experience he has read a lot and probably most of it right here on this board.

Sheesh -- "yeah, my technical knowledge has all come from ScubaBoard." Obviously, that is not true.

Just ask yourself when you were in college who would you rather teach the class, one of the students who has read the material, and would probably get a good grade on the test or the Profesor.

Define "professor" for me. In my opinion, a professor is nothing more than a person who has read the material and would get a good grade on a test. Professors are not idols -- they make mistakes (sometimes even more than students). Sometimes they're just flat out wrong. At what point does a student become a professor? Is there an age limit? Is there some arbitrary line in the sand, that in crossing one suddenly assumes the role of teacher, as is never again a student? No! Anyone can be a teacher, and anyone can be a student -- the roles only depend on who knows what at that point in time. No one knows everything, even your idolatric professors. The fact that someone is classified as a professor or is recognized as an authority is largely irrelevant when that someone is incorrect. Similarly, the fact that someone is classified as a student is largely irrelevant when that someone is correct.

If you choose to filter information based on the all-too-inaccurate labels "professor" and "student," so be it. I choose to filter information based on logic, reason, repeatability, and agreement with standards. I choose to think for myself, rather than just relying on the misleading statistic that professors are usually right more often than students are. I could care less who makes the statement, so long as it's verifiably correct. If I know I'm right in every verifiable way, and some "professor" tells me I'm wrong, you can be damned sure I'll go to bat.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. If you'd like to discount me and ignore me because I don't yet have 30,000 deep mix cave dives, that's fine -- but when I do have 30,000 deep mix cave dives, I'll still be saying the same things.

- Warren

 

[AquaTec]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG


We'll just have to agree to disagree. If you'd like to discount me and ignore me because I don't yet have 30,000 deep mix cave dives, that's fine -- but when I do have 30,000 deep mix cave dives, I'll still be saying the same things.

- Warren

warren
I choose to discount you because of your attitude, closed mindedness, baligerant responses, demmeaning method of comunicating. plus most of what you have to offer is simply something you've heard someone else say with no real opinion of your own. you are the classic sheep folowing your master to the butcher.
The information you offer is not nesasaraly incorrect, its just that you have no ability to have a sival debate about an issue that you consider contrary to your own without becoming vile.

generaly someone resorts to name calling and critisisim because they have no intelegent or reasonable argumnet for their side of the subject

 

[VTWarrenG]

Hello. I am a sheep. Can you direct me to the butcher? I'm late.

- Warren

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG
Hello. I am a sheep. Can you direct me to the butcher? I'm late.
- Warren

You're not a sheep Warren....
A goat maybe :banging:
But not a sheep.

 

[AquaTec]

Sorry If I have resorted to name calling as well, I must have nothing better to say.

 

[AquaTec]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
What level of narcosis is acceptable?
What tasks do I expect to perform and what level of impairment can I exhibit and still perform those tasks? Lets look at a specific task, responding to a reg free-flow. If I can, without impairment, switch regs and shut down one post in 8 sec and, with some impairment, do it in 10 sec can I still make the dive? If not, then if it takes another diver 10 sec normally he should never make the dive. The point is if the dive is well within my limits I should be able to function adequately with some impairment. If I can tolerate no impairment and you are slower than me than you can never dive. Many environmental factors can impair us. How much of one factor we will accept should be partially dependant on how much of the others we expect. Cold impairs us. Should we never dive in water colder than 70 F? Balancing the various risks in relation to one another, our ability, our buddy’s ability and the benefits of the dive is part of dive planning. Reducing all risks as much as reasonably possible should be the goal. But, what END is reasonable? My answer is a list of questions. For whom? Where? When? What is the temperature? Who is my teammate? What is the mission? What is the level of related experience? Has the mission been rehearsed? How important is the dive? I don’t see it as clear-cut and I certainly don’t want someone else to decide for me.

Mike
Thanks for trying to keep us on topic
I think your view points are valid
I think that each person develops a personal tolerance for narcosis. and within this personal tolerance that person starts to understand the peramitres of that tolerance.

For instance back in 1983 I was doing dives often below 200ft - you might say seeking out narcosis, I enjoyed is as one would an illegal drug.
Today I would not do a dive deeper than 150 on air as that is my average personal narcosis depth limit.

I will tell you a story about narcosis that happend to me this January.
My budy and I planned a dive to 200 ft, I hed some He in my tank, but also wanted to match his deco stops. so I set my He at 5% just a touch to cut the edge.

we dropped down rapidly decending then at 175 i got a very sudden rush of 'panic, & hyperventalation' Narcosis. I knew this was phisilogical and not phycological because for me this was the shallowest dive either of us had done in quite some time. and the dive was based on the fact the He was not available at the time.

I aborted the dive at 175 after a dive time of 2 minutes.
I gave the sign for narced to my budy and we ascended Because I knew this was a function of PPN2 I watched very carefully my depth gauge and at precisley 132 ft the feeling was gone just like someone turned on a light switch.

Since our dive plan was based on a 200 ft for 30 minutes dive we decided to play with Narcosis a bit. to better understand ourselves on that day with narcosis. we descended SLOWLY back down to 170 I felt zero effects but my partner found this to be his comfort level. I continued down to 185 with still no effects but I was at the vis limit to be within sight of my buddy.

we dove at this depth for about 5 minutes as my buddies symptoms increased we had to ascend to 150 were his symptoms went away. Mine never came back.

he was fine throghout the dive at this depth.

Post dive analasis/discution
My narcosis hits me strong when i upload PPN2 rapidly, yet with continues slow exposure the effects are mild or non existant
My buddy found that slow long exposure slowly built up in him and therefore had an effect over time at depth.

based on my END and his acual depth we both had strong effect at about 166 ft. his starting off slow and building throughout the dive and mine hitting me hard and then disapating. the difference may be a result of our difference in SAC rate mine is about twice what his is

We decided that our current personal limit would be 150 well bellow this depth.

Narcosis has recently started effecting me differently than ever before and stronger than ever before.
I believe this is a result in changing my descent rate for deeper dives. I have recently started descending at 100 feet per minute I can honestly say that Narcosis prior to this has had little if any effect on me except for a slight feeling of uephoria, but it disapates in just a few minutes at that depth, so i have to chase after it

I do not advocate or teach deep air. But I am willing to discuss it.
for me deep air starts at 150 because that is my personal discription of my limits. This may change over time. 20 years ago I would have said 240 was deep air

 

[VTWarrenG]

for me deep air starts at 150 because that is my personal discription of my limits. This may change over time. 20 years ago I would have said 240 was deep air

And twenty years from now, if you grow some neurons, you'll say 100 fsw is deep air.

What do you hope to accomplish by posting acts of blatant stupidity like this on a public forum? Do you really think anyone here has any desire to discuss your brushes with death at the hands of your own encumbering stupidity?

Do you really not realize how close you came to killing yourself by performing these moronic deep air antics?

Congratulations: your story made the hair on the back of my neck stand straight up. Divers like you really, really scare me.

- Warren