PADI tables finally going away?

[Blackwood]

Well I teach real Deco theory in my OW classes...

Given how many people (reportedly) struggle with the arithmetic involved in gas planning, that's extremely impressive. Cool!

 

[Quero]

Well I teach real Deco theory in my OW classes....

Tom, would you be willing to share your lesson plan for that segment of the course so we can see the approach you take, the aspects of the topic you cover, and the sequence you use in your presentation? Even an outline would be good for a start. Based on your lesson plan we could ask for clarification regarding specific points if necessary to our understanding of what you do.

 

[boulderjohn]

Furthermore, the only way to truly teach deco theory is through a lesson in physiology.

We're not looking for a graduate education here, we're looking for what beginning OW divers need to know.

Right. Are you saying that deco theory shouldnt be taught to OW divers? Hoe else are they going to be able to respect the reasoning behind no-deco limits?

Well I teach real Deco theory in my OW classes

Not teaching to the highest level of understanding is not the same as not teaching something period.

If you arent teaching it to the highest level of understanding, why bother?

Ah, so you teach deco theory to the highest level of understanding? Great!

Can you tell me how long it take you to do that? If I were to go through Haldane, Workmann, M-value calculations, Buhlmann, single phase theories, dual phase theories, Variable Permeability models, Reduced Gradient Bubble Models, Ratio Deco, Richard Pyle's ascent model, etc., it would require many, many days of instruction. I know how long it took me to read Mark Powell's Deco for Divers, and I can't imagine how long it would take me to do all that. Moreover, I blush to confess that although I have tried to read Bruce Weinke's publications on deco theory, they have me floored, in particular the math. I only got through first year calculus in college, and that was quite some time ago.

So, how long does it take you to teach all this? Do you have any teaching aids, or is it straight lecture?

 

[Kingpatzer]

If you arent teaching it to the highest level of understanding, why bother?

So my 9 year old is wasting her time in 3rd grade?

Wrong....It is the only time it applies. An unplanned dive profile is crazy. Aplanned dive profile with either is good, however how many people write down thier planned profile when using a computer???

I've never had a problem remembering my dive profile when diving a recreational dive. It's 3 bits of info: max depth, max time, and turn pressure. If someone can't remember that they certainly should write it down.

And no one is talking about an unplanned dive. It is a red herring in the discussion.

What happens when the computer floods, or just craps out during a dive? Which is why when i dive one i carry two....but i will venture to say "most" OW divers have no concept of redundancy.

Given they aren't diving doubles, carrying 2 masks, and on and on, I'd agree. I've never seen a computer flood. I've seen plenty of free flows, however. What happens when the pressure gage sticks or the faceplate cracks, or the gasket gives out? Again, it's a non-issue. Recreational diving includes direct ascent to the surface as a requirement for a reason.

 

[John_B]

And no one is talking about an unplanned dive. It is a red herring in the discussion.

Au contraire, mon frère. That is exactly the problem caused by flying the NDL on a PDC; there is no dive plan.

Not that you don't, per se, but that the average OW student doesn't.

 

[Blackwood]

Au contraire, mon frère. That is exactly the problem caused by flying the NDL on a PDC; there is no dive plan.

Not that you don't, per se, but that the average OW student doesn't.

And of course the lynchpin in this entire discussion is "why"?

Is it because they aren't taught to? Or because they simply choose not to?

I have no opinion on that matter.

 

[boulderjohn]

Au contraire, mon frère. That is exactly the problem caused by flying the NDL on a PDC; there is no dive plan.

Not that you don't, per se, but that the average OW student doesn't.

Are you saying that in order to have a dive plan, you have to know ahead of times the specific depths and times for those depths? That's the only way to plan a dive?

I guess that eliminates cave divers who dive to thirds as dive planners.

It eliminates people who dive halves in an open water situation as well.

It also eliminates wreck divers like John Chatterton, who has said in earlier threads that when he is exploring a wreck he does not know how deep he will be and how long he will be there.

It eliminates UTD and GUE deep divers who use average depth and then make calculations using ratio deco to determine their ascent profiles.

Have I understood you correctly? Are all of these people guilty of not planning their dives?

 

[John_B]

Are you saying that in order to have a dive plan, you have to know ahead of times the specific depths and times for those depths? That's the only way to plan a dive?

I guess that eliminates cave divers who dive to thirds as dive planners.

It eliminates people who dive halves in an open water situation as well.

It also eliminates wreck divers like John Chatterton, who has said in earlier threads that when he is exploring a wreck he does not know how deep he will be and how long he will be there.

It eliminates UTD and GUE deep divers who use average depth and then make calculations using ratio deco to determine their ascent profiles.

Have I understood you correctly? Are all of these people guilty of not planning their dives?

Oh, please. What a red herring. Do you really think cave divers go down without a dive plan? That Chatterton doesn't have a dive plan? That GUE divers don't have a dive plan? I know for a fact that DIR divers have a gas management plan that ties to their dive plan (i.e. "rock bottom").

What we are talking about is newly minted OW divers. (Read the title of this thread if you forgot the context of the discussion.)

And, yes, they should have some idea of what their dive plan is going to be before they splash in the water. The plan should include the anticipated depth, estimated run time, contingencies ("if we go 10' deeper how much shorter should the dive be?"), potential for multilevel ("we do 80 feet for x minutes, then up to the top of the wall at 35' for y minutes), etc. As well as what to do if they get separated, if someone will lead the dive (to prevent the "if they get separated" problem), if there is a specific goal or parameter such as "swim around the wreck" or "no wreck penetration" or "we turn the dive when the first diver gets to 1500 psi" or whatever. Even a review of basic hand signals wouldn't be out of the question. There should be a lot more to a dive plan than "swim around until the computer beeps at you"...

Now I know why the newer divers don't "plan their dive and dive their plan" anymore; it's because they aren't being taught to have one by instructors like boulderjohn...

 

[Kingpatzer]

Au contraire, mon frère. That is exactly the problem caused by flying the NDL on a PDC; there is no dive plan.

Not that you don't, per se, but that the average OW student doesn't.

No one is talking about flying the pdc to the NDL. We are talking about training to use, and using, the PDC to plan the dive.

Let me say that again.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT FLYING THE PDC.

If I plan a specific max time, max depth, and max gas usage for my dive, I have a dive plan, do I not?

A typical plan for me in Bonaire looked like this:

Drop down on the reef to a depth of 60'. Consider 80' a hard bottom approachable only for photo opportunities. Max bottom time is 45 minutes. Swim into the current till at 1700 PSI. Check average depth at turn. Surface at 700 psi or max bottom time, which ever comes first. If average depth exceeds 60 feet when reaching the turn pressure, max bottom becomes 30 minutes, consider hard bottom to be 60' for the return trip and swim in the 40' depth range; else, we will continue the non-contingent part of the plan.

How is that NOT a dive plan?

How is that different from what you would do with a table?

 

[boulderjohn]

Oh, please. What a red herring. Do you really think cave divers go down without a dive plan? That Chatterton doesn't have a dive plan? That GUE divers don't have a dive plan? I know for a fact that DIR divers have a gas management plan that ties to their dive plan (i.e. "rock bottom").

What we are talking about is newly minted OW divers. (Read the title of this thread if you forgot the context of the discussion.)

And, yes, they should have some idea of what their dive plan is going to be before they splash in the water. The plan should include the anticipated depth, estimated run time, contingencies ("if we go 10' deeper how much shorter should the dive be?"), potential for multilevel ("we do 80 feet for x minutes, then up to the top of the wall at 35' for y minutes), etc. As well as what to do if they get separated, if someone will lead the dive, if there is a specific goal or parameter such as "swim around the wreck" or "no wreck penetration" or "we turn the dive when the first diver gets to 1500 psi" or whatever. Even a review of basic hand signals wouldn't be out of the question. There should be a lot more to a dive plan than "swim around until the computer beeps at you"...

Now I know why the newer divers don't "plan their dive and dive their plan" anymore; it's because they aren't being taught to have one by instructors like boulderjohn...

I am certified as a full cave diver, and I am a DIR diver. I know all about that kind of planning. In a thread on this very topic, John Chatterton said that while he does carry contingency plans in case both of his computers and his both his buddy's computers break down, he does indeed fly the computer on his dives. (He is flying the deco ceilings in this case, rather than the NDLs, but that's not much of a difference.)

And you are right, those are all plans. They are all different kinds of plans, but they are all plans.

And I do teach dive planning to new divers. In fact, I spend a lot of time on it and give them handouts on it to take home and refer to later. There is the difference, though, between what I teach and what you you seem to be saying. I teach them that there are different ways to plan your dives, and you have to use that which is most appropriate to your situation. In contrast, you seem to think there is only one narrow way to plan a dive, and that any deviation from that is not planning at all.

That is the mindset that you and Tom seem to have that baffles me. You both think in absolutes. If you aren't teaching deco theory the way he does, you are not teaching deco theory at all. If you aren't planning your dive the way you do it, then you aren't planning your dive at all. It is really a remarkable attitude.