PADI tables finally going away?

[tomfcrist]

Tom, would you be willing to share your lesson plan for that segment of the course so we can see the approach you take, the aspects of the topic you cover, and the sequence you use in your presentation? Even an outline would be good for a start. Based on your lesson plan we could ask for clarification regarding specific points if necessary to our understanding of what you do.

Oh i would love to, however i dont think there is enough free space on this server to do so. Deco theory encompasses about 15 hours of my OW class.

 

[tomfcrist]

So, how long does it take you to teach all this? Do you have any teaching aids, or is it straight lecture?

About 15 hrs of classroom lectures, followed by Q&A's, and extensive reviews in order to ensure that the student processed the information.

 

[John_B]

I am certified as a full cave diver, and I am a DIR diver. I know all about that kind of planning. In a thread on this very topic, John Chatterton said that while he does carry contingency plans in case both of his computers and his both his buddy's computers break down, he does indeed fly the computer on his dives. (He is flying the deco ceilings in this case, rather than the NDLs, but that's not much of a difference.)

What part of this is relevant to a new OW diver? Chatterton knows those run times in his head. A DIR diver knows what ratio deco and rock bottom for a dive (and for the team, OBTW) are going to be for the dive. Before they ever hit the water. Everything else is contingency.

You trust a brand new diver to dive from their previous dive experience? And do contingency planning?

This is why, in the past two years, I've seen three guys go OOA on the Spiegel Grove and one guy from a boat I was on find himself owing 20 minutes of deco during a shark dive. The common factor? None of these guys had anything resembling an adequate dive plan before they hit the water. These are not isolated experiences.

I'm not saying they necessarily have to have a black-and-white "square table" plan that says 80' for 30 minutes, then ascend. I am saying that there ought to be a plan, and before they hit the water they should have an understanding of how that relates to their NDL including residual nitrogen from any previous dives, as well as the amount of gas on their backs. And not just "dive until the computer beeps".

Once they gain some experience, they can do whatever they want. But the funny thing about new divers is that, by definition, they don't know what they don't know.

FWIW, this isn't debate club. I'm responsible for my own opinions, but not anyone else's. If you find you have an issue with somebody else, feel free to take it up with them.

 

[tomfcrist]

So my 9 year old is wasting her time in 3rd grade?.

Most likely....

I've never had a problem remembering my dive profile when diving a recreational dive. It's 3 bits of info: max depth, max time, and turn pressure. If someone can't remember that they certainly should write it down.

And no one is talking about an unplanned dive. It is a red herring in the discussion.
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Niether have I. However, if you approach 10 divers underwater and ask them how long they have been down....I'll bet 8 of them have no idea, or it will take them at least 2 minutes to figure it out.

And yes we are, and were talking about unplanned dives, since it has been expressed to me many times that OW diver taught on tables will NEVER use thier tables or even bring them on the boat. Sounds like an unplanned dive to me.

Given they aren't diving doubles, carrying 2 masks, and on and on, I'd agree. I've never seen a computer flood. I've seen plenty of free flows, however. What happens when the pressure gage sticks or the faceplate cracks, or the gasket gives out? Again, it's a non-issue. Recreational diving includes direct ascent to the surface as a requirement for a reason.

I have seen computers get flooded after a battery replacement on board a boat, Its not a non issue....
And FYI, my OW students are taught about redundancy....Three is two, two is one and one is none.....If they are diving beyond 40ft, I make it very clear that a bailout(pony) bottle is an awesome thing to have when its needed.

 

[boulderjohn]

About 15 hrs of classroom lectures, followed by Q&A's, and extensive reviews in order to ensure that the student processed the information.

Thanks for the information. This is very helpful in understanding your point of view. Can you describe other aspects of your instruction?

How are the classes structured? For example, are the 15 hours of deco theory spread over 5 3-hour evening, 2 7-8 hour days, or what?

How long does the rest of the class take? Guessing from how long it takes me to teach the part of the class that is not deco theory, your class requires at least 24 hours of total classroom instruction. If you go into the rest of the stuff as deeply as you go into deco theory, I suspect it would take a lot more. How is that structured? Is it 6 4-hour sessions, for example?

Do you complete all of this before you do the pool work, or is the pool work scattered throughout the academic work?

I am also curious about how much this all costs.

 

[tomfcrist]

In a thread on this very topic, John Chatterton said that while he does carry contingency plans in case both of his computers and his both his buddy's computers break down, he does indeed fly the computer on his dives. (He is flying the deco ceilings in this case, rather than the NDLs, but that's not much of a difference.).

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt John dive rebreathers? It would make sense to not know how long you are going to stay at depth when you know you have a 6 hour gas supply on your back.

That is the mindset that you and Tom seem to have that baffles me. You both think in absolutes. If you aren't teaching deco theory the way he does, you are not teaching deco theory at all. If you aren't planning your dive the way you do it, then you aren't planning your dive at all. It is really a remarkable attitude.

I dont have that mindset at all. I merely voiced my opinion on how "I" teach, and all of a sudden the opinion of a few people on here was that of: you are doing an injustice to your students by NOT teaching computers. I never said i dont teach computers, i just teach them in a very different manner than you do.

As far as dive planning, my simple question is this: If I go diving with one of your(or netdoc's) former students, are they even going to look at thier computers before getting in the water(other than to set thier gas mix, or see that it's turned on)?
I'll bet that 8 out of 10 times...NOPE.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Niether have I. However, if you approach 10 divers underwater and ask them how long they have been down....I'll bet 8 of them have no idea, or it will take them at least 2 minutes to figure it out.

True. But that is not related to the question of what tool is most effective for teaching dive planning based on what divers are likely to have with them on the dive. Nor is it relent to the question of how is deco theory most effectively taught to OW students.

And yes we are, and were talking about unplanned dives, since it has been expressed to me many times that OW diver taught on tables will NEVER use thier tables or even bring them on the boat. Sounds like an unplanned dive to me.

Expanding this to how we get OW divers to plan their dives is probably broadening an already expansive threat to the point of making it impossible to follow. I'd love to see that discussion but in my mind it's somewhat outside of the scope of the primary point here.

 

[tomfcrist]

True. But that is not related to the question of what tool is most effective for teaching dive planning based on what divers are likely to have with them on the dive. .

OK, so is it wrong to teach the non computerized version? NO

And did i ever once say that i dont teach PDC's?NO

And as far as what they are likely to have with them....Very bold statement to say that it is more likely for a fresh OW diver to dive a computer than a table. Ya'll are making assumptions for the rest of the world based on what is happening in your niche. Probably not a fair assumption.

Expanding this to how we get OW divers to plan their dives is probably broadening an already expansive threat to the point of making it impossible to follow. I'd love to see that discussion but in my mind it's somewhat outside of the scope of the primary point here.

If its outside the point, than why have we been talking about it for the last 8 pages?
Once again, I think that both are perfectly fine for planning dives, but the vast majority of OW divers fresh out of class DONT plan dives, regardless of how they were taught.

 

[tomfcrist]

Thanks for the information. This is very helpful in understanding your point of view. Can you describe other aspects of your instruction?

How are the classes structured? For example, are the 15 hours of deco theory spread over 5 3-hour evening, 2 7-8 hour days, or what?

How long does the rest of the class take? Guessing from how long it takes me to teach the part of the class that is not deco theory, your class requires at least 24 hours of total classroom instruction. If you go into the rest of the stuff as deeply as you go into deco theory, I suspect it would take a lot more. How is that structured? Is it 6 4-hour sessions, for example?

Do you complete all of this before you do the pool work, or is the pool work scattered throughout the academic work?

I am also curious about how much this all costs.

Wow, a little winded after that one?
About 8 4hr classroom sessions....Maybe less depending on the students. Those are followed by pool sessions....Yes 8 of them. And more if needed. I used to teach a watered down version but didnt like the final product. The best way i have found to put out good divers is to over train them to the point that feel its second nature. My OW classes cost $450 per diver, not too expensive i think.

 

[boulderjohn]

Wow, a little winded after that one?
About 8 4hr classroom sessions....Maybe less depending on the students. Those are followed by pool sessions....Yes 8 of them. And more if needed. I used to teach a watered down version but didnt like the final product. The best way i have found to put out good divers is to over train them to the point that feel its second nature. My OW classes cost $450 per diver, not too expensive i think.

How many students in a typical class? Does the $450 include the OW dives as well? How long are the CW dives?

What kind of overhead expenses do you pay? Do you have to own and maintain all your own equipment? Do you have to rent pool time? Do you have to rent classroom space?

I just went to your profile and see that you are in the Navy. Is this is any way related to the Navy, or is it all independent of that?