PADI tables finally going away?

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But starting with the basics of pressure groups and NDLs with the tables and then reinforcing that knowledge...

'Pressure groups' aren't some sort of starting point for a deeper understanding into decompression mechanics. They specifically simplify the repet portion of a dive table, and nothing more. They're useless given a system which doesn't need to be legibly printed on a 5"X7" (or whatever) card.
 
I guess it all depends on the way it's taught. Introducing all 3 approaches at once would be confusing, yes. But starting with the basics of pressure groups and NDLs with the tables and then reinforcing that knowledge, along with, say Mutlilevel dives with the eRDP, etc.... I don't see how Interference Theory is applicable there.
Just my opinion.

My response was to this statement:
I can't believe anybody would argue against learning all that you can. Learn everything, tables, eRDP, computer, and they "why" behind each device. Doing so will only help. More knowledge is never bad.

Your final sentence that more knowledge is never bad is what I was talking about to begin with, and I was pointing out that more knowledge can indeed be bad.

What you may have missed earlier in the thread was that people are constantly confusing teaching decompression theory, which is, in your words, the "why" behind each device, with the teaching of the device itself. There are some people who think it is not possible to teach decompression theory without teaching tables, which is not true. In fact, trying to do both at once is where the interference theory comes in.

Let's say instead one were to teach decompression theory all by itself as a part of the class. Students learn that they are on-gassing nitrogen throughout a dive, and they learn that they have to off-gas it carefully during the dive itself. There is no need to mention devices that measure this at this time. Students can focus on the theory itself without having to learn a multi-step process at the same time.

Later on, we can teach how we measure decompression. If you are being taught the eRDPml and don't understand what a pressure group is, then it can indeed be helpful to point to the RDP. After all, the eRDPml is just a calculator version of the RDP, so they it makes sense.

On the other hand, computers have their own algorithms, and if you read the latest issue of DAN's Alert Diver in which they talk about it, we really don't know much about how they were devised. Pressure groups are meaningless to them. There is nothing in the RDP or eRDPml itself that will help you understand how a computer measures decompression.

As it turns out, I do teach both. Since I have yet to have a student take the computer-only option, I have always taught the tables (or the eRDP). I teach decompression theory almost right away, right after question #5 on Knowledge Review 1, which deals with Boyle's Law. It makes sense to me to do it then, since they are seeing that the air they breathe at depth will have more nitrogen in it.

I teach the tables/eRDPml in Knowledge Review #4. I remind them of what we learned about decompression theory, and I show them how the tables/eRDPml measure it. I then teach them how the computer does it, although all too briefly because it is not a standard part of the curriculum and I am going above and beyond.

The key is this: my students need to understand decompression theory to understand how the computer works. They do not, however, need to know the tables to understand how a computer works. They are two different tools that work in very different ways.
 
We're not looking for a graduate education here, we're looking for what beginning OW divers need to know.

Right. Are you saying that deco theory shouldnt be taught to OW divers? Hoe else are they going to be able to respect the reasoning behind no-deco limits?

Plenty of people get bent diving profiles that are well within NDLs for tables and computers. So they do fail with respect to keeping people perfectly safe.".

There is no such thing as perfectly safe diving.


Tables require a depth gage and bottom timer, that equipment fails. Do you have any objective evidence that the failure rate for a modern computer has a statistically significant higher failure rate than those two pieces of gear combined?".

Dont need any evidence to prove that point...because i never tried to make it. However since we are on the subject, i assure you that my two casio waterproof watches that cost me 40 bucks at walmart have lasted for the last 3 years and give or take 900 dives. Not only cheaper, but just as reliable at least i would say.
That brings up another point....do you think that all of peters students that buy computers from him actally buy two? ever hear of redundancy?

Indeed, if she was taught how to use her PDC very well, as you claim, how does that become an issue of instruction?".

Its not a product of bad instruction...thats my point. If i teach a diver to use tables and he/she decides to not utilize it that is the students fault....not a product of bad instruction. A diver is just as likely to fail to use a PDC properly as he/she is to fail to use a table properly.

Maybe you should go back. I never accosted you for teaching tables, but you stated that you will teach a PDC only if your student has one already. I do see that mentality as part of today's problem with students failing to do even rudimentary planning. It is my opinion that we should be teaching today's recreational students how to properly use the equipment they will be diving with: a PDC".[/ QUOTE]

Once again.......NOT ALL DIVERS USE/CAN AFFORD A PDC! And...as far as planning dives, It is my opinion that a newb rec diver is less likely to plan his/her dive with a PDC, than if they are on tables...
Tables= You must look at it before you get in the water to see at the minimum your NDL for your PD.
Computers= Just jump in the water, it'll tell me when i need to come up.

That is the mentality that new divers have.......once again, not hte way i teach, but the way people do it.
 
Right. Are you saying that deco theory shouldnt be taught to OW divers?

I would agree with that statement. The average person doesn't have the mathematical background necessary to understand deco theory.

What should be taught is:

how - which can be dramatically simplified by the use of tools such as PDCs, desktop software or dive tables, and

why - which is the potential consequence(s) of breaking the "rules" established by theory. It's similar to telling divers not to hold their breath while ascending otherwise they'll pop their lungs. While not entirely correct, it's more readily explained to the lay person than the actual physiological effects of AGE (which requires an understanding of anatomy), and it has the same results.
 
Right. Are you saying that deco theory shouldnt be taught to OW divers? Hoe else are they going to be able to respect the reasoning behind no-deco limits?

This is a serious, and not meant to be insulting, question. Is English your first language?

Not teaching to the highest level of understanding is not the same as not teaching something period.


There is no such thing as perfectly safe diving.

Correct. So your prior comments about tables keeping you safe where computers do not does not apply with respect to planned dive profiles.

Dont need any evidence to prove that point...because i never tried to make it.

Ok, then what do you mean by the comment that tables never fail but computers do?


Its not a product of bad instruction...thats my point. If i teach a diver to use tables and he/she decides to not utilize it that is the students fault....not a product of bad instruction. A diver is just as likely to fail to use a PDC properly as he/she is to fail to use a table properly.

No one has argued that computers are better because people are more likely to use them to plan dives. Indeed, it's been noted that the lack of dive planning is a serious issue. It is also a different subject from what educational methods are most effective.

That is the mentality that new divers have.......once again, not hte way i teach, but the way people do it.

It is not the way any conscientious teacher teaches, which is a huge part of the reason for this discussion . . .
 
Just curious as to everyone's thoughts on this scenario. For whatever reason you plan a dive on a reef in Bonaire down to 100'. Using tables you know you have 20 minutes. So at the 15 minute mark you head back up figuring you're being conservative, square profile, etc. You come out with a 22 minute dive time and plenty of air. On the other hand you use your computer's dive planner to know you're allowed 20 minutes at 100 ft. You again start your ascent at 15 minutes and "fly" your computer up - allowing you to tool around at 25 to 30 ft for quite awhile before you start a nice gradual swim to shore. Which dive is really better for your body?
 
I have a firm grasp on physiology and the effects of pressure on the body. I work in an ICU where multiple pressure transducers are telling me multitudes about the function of my patients. I think it helps to understand decompression theory and helped me with my deco procedures class.

That being said before taking adv nitrox/ deco procedures I didn't use tables, and I didn't go further in dive planning than how deep. My NDL determined my time. I never violated it.

Now I use tables in all my deco dives beyond ndl limits. IANDT. On my slate and in my thigh pocket. I have a bottom timer and a shearwater.
 
I'm over it.

I just realized the OP was "PADI" tables.

I learned the Navy tables. LOL
 
J Which dive is really better for your body?

Honestly, we don't know enough to tell you. They both should be fine, but there has not been nearly enough science to answer your question.

By the way, I did a 100 foot dive in nearby Curacao. I was only at 100 feet for a couple of minutes as I observed some garden eels. I then ascended and continued a multilevel path, finishing near the surface. My total time was about 80 minutes.

How does that come out on a table?
 

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