PADI tables finally going away?

[tomfcrist]

EDIT: I do use a computer while cave diving. I have only this year achieved full cave certification, and when I am in a cave I want all my attention focused on being a safe diver in a cave. It is nice to be able to glance at my wrist and know what my deco obligations are, if any, rather than having to calculate it all in my head.

Oh by the way, are you suggesting that you dont pre plan your cave dives? You know, if you fail to plan, plan to fail.

Personally, when i know im going into deco, i set myself a max depth, and a max time down there.......my Deco stops are not only pre planned, but are also on my wrist....on a slate.....that doesnt have batteries or O-rings.

 

[boulderjohn]

No, i never implied that, nor said that....He asked from a pedagogical standpoint. That has nothing to do with what is required to be taught, or needs to be taught, it has to do with teaching theory. which by the way is a personal ideology, not collective.

Pedagogy is my vocation, and I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that there all methods of instruction are equally effective, and individual instructors are equally effective using whatever methods they prefer?
...
If that is not what you are saying, then please explain further.

boulderjohn....
as to are all thing created equal.....no.

I never said all things were created equal....so what is YOUR point?

If you trace back through the thread, you will see that I was trying to understand your statement about pedagogy: "teaching theory. which by the way is a personal ideology, not collective." I asked you if that meant that all teaching methods were equally effective. I then said that if that is not what you meant, what was it that you did mean.

So, I will ask again. What do you mean by "teaching theory. which by the way is a personal ideology, not collective"?

 

[boulderjohn]

Oh by the way, are you suggesting that you dont pre plan your cave dives? You know, if you fail to plan, plan to fail.

Personally, when i know im going into deco, i set myself a max depth, and a max time down there.......my Deco stops are not only pre planned, but are also on my wrist....on a slate.....that doesnt have batteries or O-rings.

Sigh.

My cave dives are pretty carefully planned, but not perfectly planned. I know where I am going, and I know roughly my maximum depth. I dive to a third of my gas and return. I therefore can't be sure how long (in terms of time) I will be diving into the cave, and I don't know for sure how long it will take me to come out. (It depends upon lots of things.) When I was doing instruction, the time depended a whole lot on how much harassment my instructor was going to put me through on the way out. I have to follow the contour of the cave, so I can't be sure what my average depths will be.

As for my deco dives, I usually do a square profile, and I have a plan from the start as well. I can also change the plan if I want. I am not sure I know what you are trying to prove with this--we are not talking about standard tables with this.

 

[boulderjohn]

I use IANTD tables. But my point is that I do (or have done) a great deal of trimix diving, and although many trimix divers I know also use a computer (as I do) they use tables on every dive.

I don't question that.

Can you tell me what this has to do with basic OW instruction?

 

[boulderjohn]

Really....dont know anyone who dives based on USnavy decomression models? I think not. And although im not completely familiar with the computer based planners, im pretty sure they are a square profile....just like tables, just on your laptop.

Nope. Don't know a single person who uses those.

Back when I was taking TDI training, they were in our text and we learned to use them, but the instructor made it clear he considered them to be "bend and treat" tables, and strongly suggested we never use them. Back then we used either V-Planner or DecoPlanner to plan our dives.

And the software programs are not remotely like basic OW tables. You plug in your planned values and get a profile printout. You don't follow a long series of steps going up one column, across a row, down another column, etc.

 

[Blackwood]

The answer to that goes to one of the reasons it is a false analogy
[snip]
There are other reasons for it being a false analogy, as was explained earlier.

On the face of it, though, memorizing multiplication tables =/= learning multiplication, and going through the motions on dive tables =/= learning decompression theory (both being the "why" from the quoted post).

Stratdax's analogy is apt in my mind (as a layperson when it comes to education). It's just that it demonstrates the opposite of his intent

 

[boulderjohn]

And when i called him on it, next thing you know Kingpatzer joins in with him, and now you. Keep trying to make me look like the bad guy....It shows that you have no humility, and no class.

Well, although no one has attacked your character at all, you obviously have no trouble attacking mine.

Can you point to any post in which I did anything other than respond to an argument you had made. Can you point to anything I wrote that put you down personally?

How am I making you look like the bad guy?

Does countering someone's argument show that he has no humility and no class?

 

[The Chairman]

Sure i will..... go back to my first post in this thread,

Maybe you should go back. I never accosted you for teaching tables, but you stated that you will teach a PDC only if your student has one already. I do see that mentality as part of today's problem with students failing to do even rudimentary planning. It is my opinion that we should be teaching today's recreational students how to properly use the equipment they will be diving with: a PDC.

That being said, you took umbrage where none was proffered. I know that I never indicated that you are a "closed minded fool".

 

[Kingpatzer]

And when i called him on it, next thing you know Kingpatzer joins in with him, and now you. Keep trying to make me look like the bad guy....It shows that you have no humility, and no class.

I've never tried to "make you look like the bad guy." I joined in on a discussion where I happen to have an opinion. Given that this is a discussion board, that is a rather innocuous act. I certainly have never attacked you personally nor impugned you motives.

Indeed, I'm still waiting for a straightforward answer to the question I keep asking:

Do you believe that decompression theory can not be adequately taught without tables?

It's really not a hard question to answer. It requires a "yes" or a "no." And honestly, when you start elaborating it tends to cloud the answer in my mind and I really have no idea what your position on that one point is.

If you want to feel persecuted, that's your prerogative.

 

[tomfcrist]

Are tables the way to teach deco theory, no.

That being said, neither are computers. Both are equally inadequate in that respect. Furthermore, the only way to truly teach deco theory is through a lesson in physiology.

Now, what tables are used for is to keep you from getting a hard lesson in deco theory, by getting bent. And regardless of what anyone says, they don't fail..... The diver who dives without planning and executing thier dive plan does fail. It has nothing to do with if we teach tables or computers.

Two months ago, I dove on the same boat with an experianced diver that had a new veo. She blew off 19 minutes of deco obligation for two reasons....she didn't know she was on deco, and even if she did, she didn't have enough air to stay down. OBTW, I know her instructor.... He teaches PDC's....very well.