PADI tables finally going away?

[Kingpatzer]

Are tables the way to teach deco theory, no.

Ok, so you are in agreement with me, NetDoc, and BoulderJohn on that point. So let's set that aside. Tables are not required for an OW student to learn what is necessary to know about decompression theory.

That being said, neither are computers. Both are equally inadequate in that respect. Furthermore, the only way to truly teach deco theory is through a lesson in physiology.

We're not looking for a graduate education here, we're looking for what beginning OW divers need to know.

Now, what tables are used for is to keep you from getting a hard lesson in deco theory, by getting bent. And regardless of what anyone says, they don't fail..... The diver who dives without planning and executing thier dive plan does fail. It has nothing to do with if we teach tables or computers.

Plenty of people get bent diving profiles that are well within NDLs for tables and computers. So they do fail with respect to keeping people perfectly safe.

This leads me to a very specific question:

Tables require a depth gage and bottom timer, that equipment fails. Do you have any objective evidence that the failure rate for a modern computer has a statistically significant higher failure rate than those two pieces of gear combined?

Two months ago, I dove on the same boat with an experianced diver that had a new veo. She blew off 19 minutes of deco obligation for two reasons....she didn't know she was on deco, and even if she did, she didn't have enough air to stay down. OBTW, I know her instructor.... He teaches PDC's....very well.

How this relates to instructional methods I'm not quite certain. If this was an OW diver, getting into 20 minutes of decompression obligation was a problem on so many levels it's hard to know where to start. OW students should never have a decompression obligation of any sort. Do you believe this diver would have paid any more attention to their air pressure, depth gage and bottom timer than they obviously paid to their computer? Indeed, if she was taught how to use her PDC very well, as you claim, how does that become an issue of instruction?

I can counter that the only person I personally know to have been bent (without there being extenuating circumstances involving attempting to rescue a buddy in significant distress) got bent while diving a table and were within a "safe" profile. Does my anecdote prove my position to you? It shouldn't.

 

[peterbj7]

I don't question that.

Can you tell me what this has to do with basic OW instruction?

Nothing at all, as is the case of much of what has been posted in this thread. But you were implying that tables are no longer used for diving (at any rate by responsible divers) and I was pointing out your error.

 

[boulderjohn]

I can counter that the only person I personally know to have been bent (without there being extenuating circumstances involving attempting to rescue a buddy in significant distress) got bent while diving a table and were within a "safe" profile. Does my anecdote prove my position to you? It shouldn't.

And the only person I know who got bent was not using a computer, either. He was doing exactly as you do:

max depth, and a max time down there.......my Deco stops are not only pre planned, but are also on my wrist....on a slate.....that doesnt have batteries or O-rings

The only difference is that the plan was on his wet notes, but only as a back up. His buddy (me) was deco captain that day, and I assure you we followed the plan to a T, except that I added two minutes to the final stop as a safety margin. The next day I felt really great, but he was in the chamber for the first of his four days of treatment.

I am not sure what this proves, either.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Originally Posted by Lorenzoid
Plastic tables may be a tool not well suited for teaching deco theory but they have some value and work anywhere, anytime, with instructors and students who speak any language.

There are blind people who dive too. Should we all learn braille, or should we perhaps not set our policies based on outliers and instead create exceptions for them?

That's up to PADI. The original question was simply whether the PADI tables are (or should) be going away. I have to believe that PADI DOES take "outliers" into consideration in developing its worldwide curriculum.

 

[stratdax]

Again, this was covered earlier in the thread. Look up Interference Theory to see what I mean. More knowledge is indeed sometimes bad. If you overload students with tons of information, they will learn none of it. If instead you teach them what they need to know thoroughly, they are more likely to remember it.

I know of Interference Theory, but I don't believe it applies in this case. I look at Tables, eRDPs, and computers as supporting and reinforcing each other, rather than approaching the end result from different methods. Like, you're going down the same road to the same destination with each device, but you just have a different car. Sorry for the car analogy.
I guess it all depends on the way it's taught. Introducing all 3 approaches at once would be confusing, yes. But starting with the basics of pressure groups and NDLs with the tables and then reinforcing that knowledge, along with, say Mutlilevel dives with the eRDP, etc.... I don't see how Interference Theory is applicable there.
Just my opinion.

Edit: I should clarify, I'm not a teacher, I'm a brand new diver. I just finished my Open Water. The table wasn't exactly taught in the course, we used the eRDP. However, I asked my instructor for some clarification on a few things and she pulled out the table and worked through my problems with it, which cleared my confusion right up. Coming directly out of the course I can see the weaknesses of only learning with one tool.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Accordingly, for the time being, PADI is probably going to continue promoting the use of simple teaching tools that can be applied reasonably effectively by any instructor in any corner of the world.

I'm not sure that anyone is arguing that tables should never be used or are utterly inappropriate for teaching OW students. I do believe that we are discussing views on ideal normative methods. Indeed, you seem to agree with me that businesses should consider outliers, but not set standards considering outliers as the primary targets.

 

[boulderjohn]

Nothing at all, as is the case of much of what has been posted in this thread. But you were implying that tables are no longer used for diving (at any rate by responsible divers) and I was pointing out your error.

I never said tables are no longer used for diving. I never said anything like that.

I was responding to a statement that specified tech divers and implied that tech divers were all table users who only used their computers in gauge mode. Here is what I said.

I know tech divers who use ratio deco. I know tech divers who use computers. I know tech divers who use decompression planning software like V-Planner, DecoPlanner, Gap, etc. I do not know any tech divers who use tables. There are some tables that are applicable to technical diving, and people who want to do that sort of thing are free to learn them when it is needed. I just don't know anyone like this.
?

At no point did I talk about anything other than tech diving, and I clearly said that some tech divers did use tables. I just don't know any personally.

Where was my error?

 

[boulderjohn]

That's up to PADI. The original question was simply whether the PADI tables are (or should) be going away. I have to believe that PADI DOES take "outliers" into consideration in developing its worldwide curriculum.

PADI gives students the option to learn computers. They still teach tables, and I don't believe that will change at any time in the conceivable future.

 

[DiveNav]

I know of Interference Theory, but I don't believe it applies in this case. .......... But starting with the basics of pressure groups and NDLs with the tables and then reinforcing that knowledge........

Why new divers should be "distracted" learning Pressure Groups .... while what really matter (theoretically) are M values and half-times (Buhlmann case) ?

 

[Lorenzoid]

PADI gives students the option to learn computers. They still teach tables, and I don't believe that will change at any time in the conceivable future.

Agreed. I'll leave the pedagogical arguments for and against tables to you expert pedagogues. I can certainly see the argument of how tables can actually conflate deco theory and dive planning to the point of confusing a student. My two cents simply related to the notion that PADI could in the foreseeable future tell all its instructors worldwide to stop using tables and instead use only dive computers or some on-line teaching tool. I don't think many of us think that's going to happen.

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of making TABLES an option at the discretion of the instructor. Seems to me that if students in some corners of the world are taught using tables only, then students everywhere should probably be subjected to tables.