PADI tables finally going away?

[lowviz]

The problem here, as far as I can tell, is that you (and most others) don't know what it means to "go into deco"..............

..........Your post demonstrates a fundamental lack of gas planning. .............

Yup, I'm sure you are correct. What me worry? Gas planning? What's that? (Or do you mean this?
..........

No, I know what it means to go into deco. See attached image, I wrote the simulator. Agrees with both my tables and PDC's quite well.

I never said or thought that you don't know gas management. [/ PISSING CONTEST]

 

[boulderjohn]

No clue.... seriously? How are they using them incorrectly?

In my experience...

1. Most people don't know there is a planning mode that lets them know what their maximum bottom time will be on a square profile.

2. Most people don't know how their computer tells them what to do in case of accidental violation of no decompression limits.

3. Most people don't know that it will keep track of their surface interval.

I had an interesting experience once while on a group dive trip. I ended up rooming with and buddying with a pretty experienced diver whom I have never met before the trip. Well into one dive he suddenly started heading toward the surface. I followed, of course. I caught him at about 25 feet and gave him a "what's up?" shrug. His eyes were wide as he held his computer up for me to see. I looked and saw nothing noteworthy. I repeated the shrug and he gestured with the computer emphatically, as if it should be obvious. I was still baffled.

Back on the boat it all got straightened out. While we were at depth, he had looked at his computer and seen that he had only a few minutes of no deco time left. Since the only thing he understood was square profiles, he assumed that this was all the time he had left before he went into deco and something horrible would happen to him. That is why he began his ascent, so he could reach the surface before his no deco time ran out. When he showed me the computer, he assumed I was seeing next to no time left, but I was actually seeing plenty of NDL time because of his ascent, and I could not figure out what the big deal was. He would not believe me when I explained to him that the NDL changed that much as he ascended.

In the past year on SB there have been several threads that tell a similar story.

 

[tomfcrist]

I dont know about other folks opinions, but i personally will continue to teach tables until the day i quit teaching. I believe that a course should cover not only tables but computer use(assuming the student has a computer). If the student buys a computer after my class is copmplete, i will gladly teach them how to use it......FREE.

The problem with relying on computers alone is that it gives inexperianced divers a false sense of security. Most are willing to dive the limits of thier computers without thinking twice about it, and most of those inexperianced divers diving to the outer limits of thier computers have a problem at one point or the other. I've never been bent diving tables, not so true on a computer.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I dont know about other folks opinions, but i personally will continue to teach tables until the day i quit teaching. I believe that a course should cover not only tables but computer use(assuming the student has a computer). If the student buys a computer after my class is copmplete, i will gladly teach them how to use it......FREE.

The problem with relying on computers alone is that it gives inexperianced divers a false sense of security. Most are willing to dive the limits of thier computers without thinking twice about it, and most of those inexperianced divers diving to the outer limits of thier computers have a problem at one point or the other. I've never been bent diving tables, not so true on a computer.

The problem with your argument is that divers in general don't plan their dives like they should. I've gotten more than a few odd stares when trying to plan a dive while on vacation. Asking the DM for specific site information about depth and time and calculating proper surface intervals and the like has actually gotten me accused of "holding up the dive" because I wouldn't do a "trust me" dive. I've yet to experience the DM say "Yeah, everyone you should all be planning your dives based on this information."

I've never seen a set of tables on a boat besides mine and my wife's. I've never seen anyone else initiate dive planning on a boat.

And the absolute majority of divers out there are only diving on these types of charters.

 

[The Chairman]

The problem with relying on computers alone is that it gives inexperianced divers a false sense of security. Most are willing to dive the limits of thier computers without thinking twice about it, and most of those inexperianced divers diving to the outer limits of thier computers have a problem at one point or the other. I've never been bent diving tables, not so true on a computer.

I emboldened the real problem in the above quote and that is a training issue. Why don't they think twice about it? You never taught them to.

More often than not, a traditional instructor's approach to PDCs is simply to ignore them whenever possible. IF the student has a PDC, they will teach them rather than just giving them the knowledge regardless. Odds are, they will be diving with one sooner if not later. You KNOW they are going to get off of tables as soon as they can. Unfortunately, if your concept of a PDC is that it is ONLY a convenience and that there is nothing to them, then you are perpetuating the problem. Learning a PDC is far more than simply learning how to press it's buttons. Heck, the manual can teach you that. As an instructor, our job is to connect the dots so that the students comprehend what they are looking at and what the hell it actually means to their diving. You have to train them to connect what little they have learned about deco theory and use their PDC to their advantage. Obviously, if they ride their NDL on the first dive, odds are they will be having a very short second dive and/or incur a obligatory stop.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I do use visuals. I have two PowerPoints. The first one shows how nitrogen diffuses from the air being breathed into the blood and then into the tissues. They see that when there are more Ns in the air section because of depth, it will diffuse into the blood and tissue. They see how the opposite happens when they ascend.

The second PowerPoint, which I have just made and has not yet been used, uses a computer printout of an actual downloaded dive profile. Students see how the theoretical tissues take on gas as the dive progresses. They see how the tissues are theoretically loaded as the diver approaches the no decompression limit, and they see how they give off gas on the ascent. They also see the beginning of the second dive to see how the tissues had changed during the surface interval, and they can compare a second dive start with a first dive start to see the effect of residual nitrogen.

If you want visuals, you can get them without the need for a table.

That's a GREAT way to teach! As others have mentioned here, nitrogen loading/offgassing theory and tables are not synonymous, and when tables are taught simultaneously with the theory, the difference can get muddled. However, wasn't the original question here whether the tables are or should go away as part of the OW curriculum?

Sure, if everyone teaches with PowerPoint slides or has an instructor who's an articulate physiology professor, then let the tables die as a teaching tool. But aren't there places in the world where they don't teach using Powerpoint or other fancy tools? I've seen instruction where class is in a hut by the beach, the instructors may not speak the students' language(s) all that fluently, and the students receive a well-worn plastic dive table to practice with. I can't see PADI eliminating dive tables from the curriculum any time soon, because tables are readily available to all and remain a reasonable way for students to develop an intuitive understanding of how the theory applies in practice. The nitrogen loading theory and the tables may not be synonymous, but the tables can provide a sort of universal language for conveying how the theory can be applied.

 

[tomfcrist]

I emboldened the real problem in the above quote and that is a training issue. Why don't they think twice about it? You never taught them to.

WHOA! Hold up there buddy.

Have you ever taken my class?????? Obviously not.

Where in my post, or any of my previous posts for all that matters, have you gotten the notion that I dont teach dive planning? When I do teach computers, I explicitly make it clear that they should NOT dive to the outer limits of thier computers.

As far as your notion that they are all going to be on a computer eventually anyway,, I say Fooey. Maybe 40% will at best. The other 60% are carribian vacation divers, and or once a year divers. Its just a fact, it has nothing to do with my teaching style, or the quality of my instruction....Not all divers become hardcores like us.

Please think twice before trying to question my teaching practices, or ethics.

thanks.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Actually, decompression theory is the basis for decompression planning and advanced scuba/technical diving.
Tables are also useful conveniences that should never precede or substitute for the learning of the fundamental principles above. . .

No BoulderJohn . . .I disagree. Surely you can appreciate the following from an Education & Learning perspective:

A corollary and another analogy for you:

Number Theory is to elementary arithmetic just as Decompression Theory is to dive tables.

The foundation and greater utility is first learning & comprehending elementary arithmetic, while the greater abstraction is going further to study & apply Number Theory, just as:

The foundation and greater utility is first learning & comprehending basic dive table decompression planning, while the greater abstraction is going further to study & apply Decompression Theory.

Electronic Digital Calculators/Computers are useful conveniences that should never precede or substitute for the learning of the fundamental elementary principles above. . .

Same further motivation as before. . .
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5268132-post59.html

 

[The Chairman]

WHOA! Hold up there buddy.

Have you ever taken my class?????? Obviously not.

I can only go by your words that they won't think twice about it. Results of training are slight bit less than the sum of it's parts.

Where in my post, or any of my previous posts for all that matters, have you gotten the notion that I dont teach dive planning? When I do teach computers, I explicitly make it clear that they should NOT dive to the outer limits of thier computers.

I made it exceptionally clear that I find the concept of NOT teaching computers to every student a misfortune for them.

As far as your notion that they are all going to be on a computer eventually anyway,, I say Fooey. Maybe 40% will at best. The other 60% are carribian vacation divers, and or once a year divers. Its just a fact, it has nothing to do with my teaching style, or the quality of my instruction....Not all divers become hardcores like us.

The price of PDCs has been drastically reduced: even novices can (and should) own one. Look at the other %60. How many of THOSE divers will even take their tables on their vacations? <%1? Are you proud that the results of your training are that %60 of your students don't do ANY dive planning other than what is done for them? Would you be concerned if only %40 of your students passed the class? In my book, the %60 who would dive without planning just failed the acid test.

Please think twice before trying to question my teaching practices, or ethics.

Tom, I am not questioning YOUR practices or ethics: I am questioning the entire industry. You are the NORM here. My contention is that the NORM isn't good enough. Everyone seems to want to blame the PDCs and frankly, not a one is responsible for the training and attitudes of the people who use them: WE ARE. Since it's a near given that the vast majority of students won't look at the tables after class ends, perhaps it's time for us to force the issue and make a PDC mandatory as student gear?

 

[The Chairman]

I've seen instruction where class is in a hut by the beach, the instructors may not speak the students' language(s) all that fluently, and the students receive a well-worn plastic dive table to practice with.

Wait... are you saying that they don't even get a NEW dive table to own and wear out? What are the ethics of teaching someone to dive tables and then not making sure that they even own one?