PADI tables finally going away?

[The Chairman]

Electronic Digital Calculators/Computers are useful conveniences that should never precede or substitute for the learning of the fundamental elementary principles above. . .

That's the point Kev: Dive tables are not a part of the fundamental elementary principles of diving physiology. They are only a tool, just like a PDC, to explore the probabilities of those principles. Too often, real instruction about the fundamentals of breathing physiology is reduced to mere Letter Groups because instructors do not have the grasp of the theory. You don't have to be a physiology professor to be able to clearly instruct your students how you on and off gas as you dive. You certainly don't need (or want) tables to muddy up those concepts until they have a firm grasp of physiology. After that is done, they need to be taught HOW to track excess N2 and that can be done with either a table or a PDC.

 

[boulderjohn]

Wait... are you saying that they don't even get a NEW dive table to own and wear out? What are the ethics of teaching someone to dive tables and then not making sure that they even own one?

It's a definite standards violation, and I wonder why we should be designing instructional practice around people who violate standards.

 

[John_B]

Wait... are you saying that they don't even get a NEW dive table to own and wear out? What are the ethics of teaching someone to dive tables and then not making sure that they even own one?

That doesn't sound good, though I know dive operations have lost their PADI affiliation over reusing the OW books, so nothing surprises me.

That said, I'm curious if an OW student who only learned to dive with a PDC instead of tables would get a PDC of their very own "to own and wear out"?

 

[The Chairman]

That said, I'm curious if an OW student who only learned to dive with a PDC instead of tables would get a PDC of their own "to own and wear out"?

I am thinking they should be required just like mask, fins, booties, wetsuit and snorkel in my class. I would say around 70% of my OW classes buy a PDC in the first month after diving. The others borrow or rent them. I don't present it as an option.

 

[tomfcrist]

I can only go by your words that they won't think twice about it. Results of training are slight bit less than the sum of it's parts.

We as instructors cannot in any way make our divers use common sense post completing the course.

I made it exceptionally clear that I find the concept of NOT teaching computers to every student a misfortune for them. The price of PDCs has been drastically reduced: even novices can (and should) own one. Look at the other %60. How many of THOSE divers will even take their tables on their vacations? <%1? Are you proud that the results of your training are that %60 of your students don't do ANY dive planning other than what is done for them? Would you be concerned if only %40 of your students passed the class? In my book, the %60 who would dive without planning just failed the acid test.

Im respectfull of your theorys and contentions about training on PDC's, and yes i have no doubt that some of my students havent planned a dive since they completed training. However, look in the mirror on that one brother. How many of your students do the same. When i work as a DM, I require my divers to plan their dives, either by PDC, or tables. If every DM did this, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Tom, I am not questioning YOUR practices or ethics: I am questioning the entire industry. You are the NORM here. My contention is that the NORM isn't good enough. Everyone seems to want to blame the PDCs and frankly, not a one is responsible for the training and attitudes of the people who use them: WE ARE. Since it's a near given that the vast majority of students won't look at the tables after class ends, perhaps it's time for us to force the issue and make a PDC mandatory as student gear?

Believe me when i tell you that i am far from the NORM. PDC's are great tools, and they also have a failure rate. Tables dont fail, so i teach tables. Even when i dive for pleasure, i usually plan my dives as Deco(regardless of if they are or not), and dive navy tables. As far as my students, My AOW bubbas get to do both......Dives planned on tables and monitored on a PDC.

What i really see in your theory is that you are Pro PDC, Anti Table. Do you believe that your students dont need to know the theory behind the algorithm that the PDC uses? Do you think they should know the differance between a multilevel dive and a square profile?

I dont have a problem with teaching PDC's, but MY students WILL learn tables.

 

[Kingpatzer]

As far as your notion that they are all going to be on a computer eventually anyway,, I say Fooey. Maybe 40% will at best. The other 60% are carribian vacation divers, and or once a year divers. Its just a fact, it has nothing to do with my teaching style, or the quality of my instruction....Not all divers become hardcores like us.

More and more rental shops are putting console computers on their octos. In the last 2 or 3 years I don't recall seeing rental gear in vacation dive spots without computers. Now, these aren't out of the way, or extremely poor dive areas I'm hitting, so it's not a proper sample. But the idea that the 60% of Caribbean vacation divers won't see a computer is just flawed.

 

[tomfcrist]

More and more rental shops are putting console computers on their octos. In the last 2 or 3 years I don't recall seeing rental gear in vacation dive spots without computers. Now, these aren't out of the way, or extremely poor dive areas I'm hitting, so it's not a proper sample. But the idea that the 60% of Caribbean vacation divers won't see a computer is just flawed.

Look at some local USA dive spots, IE: Florida Keys, California coast, etc.....I havent seen a set of rental gear yet that has a computer attached.

Knowing that these places exist, there is a liability involved in not teaching basic dive tables. If you dont teach them, you are failing your students. As far as PDC's, a moron can dive a basic air profile on one, without even reading the manual.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Look at some local USA dive spots, IE: Florida Keys, California coast, etc.....I havent seen a set of rental gear yet that has a computer attached.

The same goes for Canada, Bonaire and Thailand (at least the places I have been in the past 1.5 years). I have never seen a rental console have a computer in it. Why include something when you can provide it at an extra cost?

 

[The Chairman]

We as instructors cannot in any way make our divers use common sense post completing the course.

Or can we? PDCs are presented by many instructors as brainless widgits rather than as a useful tool.

Im respectfull of your theorys and contentions about training on PDC's, and yes i have no doubt that some of my students havent planned a dive since they completed training. However, look in the mirror on that one brother. How many of your students do the same. When i work as a DM, I require my divers to plan their dives, either by PDC, or tables. If every DM did this, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Like I said: most buy a PDC during or just after class.

Believe me when i tell you that i am far from the NORM. PDC's are great tools, and they also have a failure rate. Tables dont fail, so i teach tables.

Tables may not fail, but MOST DIVERS fail to use tables. Why base your teaching on something that they won't use?

What i really see in your theory is that you are Pro PDC, Anti Table.

Then you see it wrong. I am not "anti-tables". However, when I see that the system is broke, I am not crazy enough to keep on using it without trying to fix it or redesign it. Here's a little logic puzzle for you. Choose the best answer based on the information given

You taught dive planning using tables for years, but your students refuse to use tables after class. In retrospect you should:

[] a. Keep up the same failed process.
[] b. Teach something that your student will use after class ends.
[] c. Teach ratio deco as an alternate method for your intro students.
[] d. None of the above.
[] e. All of the above.

Do you believe that your students dont need to know the theory behind the algorithm that the PDC uses?

Of course... and although that does not include tables I give them a historical insight on how tables helped our sport get started.

Do you think they should know the differance between a multilevel dive and a square profile?

Sure. My students can even perform multi-level dives right after they get their OW certification.

I dont have a problem with teaching PDC's, but MY students WILL learn tables.

I don't have a problem teaching tables: it's my student's option.

 

[The Chairman]

Look at some local USA dive spots, IE: Florida Keys, California coast, etc.....I havent seen a set of rental gear yet that has a computer attached.

Identify one shop in the Keys that does not rent a PDC. I triple dog dare you.

Knowing that these places exist, there is a liability involved in not teaching basic dive tables.

Shenanigans on the liability issue. If you have taught them to use a PDC and they don't dive with it you are CLEAR. However, you might be liable if you have certified them to dive and they get bent on a PDC because you failed to teach them that. But, how about ethics? How ethical is teaching them something you KNOW they won't be using.

If you dont teach them, you are failing your students.

Especially with the PDC since you KNOW that they will not use tables after class.

As far as PDC's, a moron can dive a basic air profile on one, without even reading the manual.

That's the problematic attitude. As long as you keep pushing that notion, we will continue to have people not get trained in using a PDC.