PADI tables finally going away?

[Kingpatzer]

As far as PDC's, a moron can dive a basic air profile on one, without even reading the manual.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges, but in doing so are invalidating your own argument.

The argument is for teaching students to PLAN and EXECUTE their dives off of a PDC. You have been arguing PDC's are insufficient for planning as the student can't understand the resulting plan and the underlying implications and tables should be taught for safety reasons.

Yet you then go on to claim that a PDC user doesn't have to even read the manual, let alone plan a dive.

Now, which is it? Is the PDC an insufficient tool, or is it so useful that planning isn't even necessary?

Personally, I'm in the middle: I hold the PDC is a perfectly adequate tool when used properly which includes planning the dive, and executing the dive against the plan.

 

[tomfcrist]

Identify one shop in the Keys that does not rent a PDC. I triple dog dare you.

You are referring to their STANDARD rental gear right???? For reef dives? Underseas Inc., Dive Key West, Innerspace, Captains Corner, Looe Key Dive Center.....Oh wait thats too many right?
The only time a computer is even mentioned is when going on a deep wreck dive.

Shenanigans on the liability issue. If you have taught them to use a PDC and they don't dive with it you are CLEAR. However, you might be liable if you have certified them to dive and they get bent on a PDC because you failed to teach them that.

Not Shenanigans i assure you. If i teach them to dive with tables and then they dont use them...I am in the clear. If I offer free instruction on thier PDC if they chooise to buy one, Also in the clear.

But, how about ethics? How ethical is teaching them something you KNOW they won't be using. Especially with the PDC since you KNOW that they will not use tables after class.

I dont "KNOW" what anyone is going to do or not do, and if you think that you do, you are freakin crazy. So what you are saying is that you "KNOW" that every diver is going to buy/use a PDC? I have a couplke dozen guys and gals that i dive with quite often that will prove you wrong, and they have been diving as long as i have.

That's the problematic attitude. As long as you keep pushing that notion, we will continue to have people not get trained in using a PDC.

The problematic attitude is that you believe that I should teach by your standards, that are a liability nightmare.....not only because my agency mandates that i teach Tables, but because not all destinations have computers availible to rent....

 

[tomfcrist]

You are trying to compare apples and oranges, but in doing so are invalidating your own argument.

The argument is for teaching students to PLAN and EXECUTE their dives off of a PDC. You have been arguing PDC's are insufficient for planning as the student can't understand the resulting plan and the underlying implications and tables should be taught for safety reasons.

Yet you then go on to claim that a PDC user doesn't have to even read the manual, let alone plan a dive..

OK, well stated, now let me clarify.....
PDC's are just as useable at any level as a table is. However, not all destinations have computers availible, and if they do its probably not a computer that the student is familiar with, so we are back to square one.
By sayin g a moron can use one means this: every computer i have ever used display plan mode as soon as its activated...telling you how much NDL you have at a given depth. one you are in the water they go into dive mode and give you your current NDL...Stay out of deco......Simple right?

Now, which is it? Is the PDC an insufficient tool, or is it so useful that planning isn't even necessary?
Personally, I'm in the middle: I hold the PDC is a perfectly adequate tool when used properly which includes planning the dive, and executing the dive against the plan.

Im not saying that there is no NEED to plan, I'm saying that just because a diver has a PDC, doesnt mean he/she is going to plan the dive.

 

[The Chairman]

You are referring to their STANDARD rental gear right???? For reef dives? Underseas Inc., Dive Key West, Innerspace, Captains Corner, Looe Key Dive Center.....Oh wait thats too many right?
The only time a computer is even mentioned is when going on a deep wreck dive.

That wasn't the question. CAN you rent a PDC at these places? Sure. Just ask and they would love to do that as long as you are diving with them. Now I wonder... do they have the tables you taught your students on? :shocked2:

Not Shenanigans i assure you. If i teach them to dive with tables and then they dont use them...I am in the clear. If I offer free instruction on thier PDC if they chooise to buy one, Also in the clear.

I'll bet that some instructor will be sued for this very thing and right soonly.

I dont "KNOW" what anyone is going to do or not do, and if you think that you do, you are freakin crazy.

Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, like expecting your students to use the tables you trained them on.

So what you are saying is that you "KNOW" that every diver is going to buy/use a PDC? I have a couplke dozen guys and gals that i dive with quite often that will prove you wrong, and they have been diving as long as i have.

I've only been diving since 1969, so what do I know? Again, I know that the students that are trained to use only tables will fail to use them most of the time. Yet, most of my students procure a PDC pretty darn quickly during or after their class.

The problematic attitude is that you believe that I should teach by your standards, that are a liability nightmare.....not only because my agency mandates that i teach Tables, but because not all destinations have computers availible to rent....

The number of destinations NOT having a PDC to rent is dwindling rapidly. It's a moot point and the next time you travel, be sure to ask your charter if they have them available.

 

[The Chairman]

You are trying to compare apples and oranges, but in doing so are invalidating your own argument.

The need for tables to be taught by some is clearly an emotional issue and so reason and logic have no affect on them. It's one of those you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dive kind of thing. Obviously, if you see teaching tables as superfluous in the grand scheme of teaching your student basic deco theory and how to plan a dive, then they label you "anti-tables". Not everyone is meant to follow the evolutionary path.

 

[tomfcrist]

That wasn't the question. CAN you rent a PDC at these places? Sure. Just ask and they would love to do that as long as you are diving with them. Now I wonder... do they have the tables you taught your students on?

Probably not all of them, but my students sure do.

I'll bet that some instructor will be sued for this very thing and right soonly.

No more than the instructor that taught a student to use a GEO 250, but the student went out and bought a Cobra 3.

Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, like expecting your students to use the tables you trained them on. I've only been diving since 1969, so what do I know? Again, I know that the students that are trained to use only tables will fail to use them most of the time. Yet, most of my students procure a PDC pretty darn quickly during or after their class.

First of all, i am willing to bet that a good chunk of your students are jumping into the water with thier fancy PDC without even glancing at the plan mode......relying solely on the NDL displayed during the dive. sound like Piss Poor Planning?
Second, I could care less how long you've been diving. It means nothing to me, and is not a badge of honor.
And third, those students of yours that were trained only to use computers, will eventually have a PDC failure, or it will get broken in transport....What???How am i gonna dive if i dont have a computer to tell me how long i can stay down?

The number of destinations NOT having a PDC to rent is dwindling rapidly. It's a moot point and the next time you travel, be sure to ask your charter if they have them available.

The moot point is that you just readily admitted that SOME destinations still have NO PDC's AT ALL!

 

[boulderjohn]

Tables are just as likely to fail as computers.

You are forgetting that a table must have other equipment accompanying it--a timer and a depth gauge.

I had a fairly expensive dive watch that failed twice while I was using it, inexplicably stopping for a while and then starting again. I only realized it after the dive was over and saw that it had lost about ten minutes during the time I was using it. How serious a problem do you think that might be for someone diving tables?

When I do deco dives, I do not use a computer. We use bottom timers for depth and time. A bottom timer is nothing more than a computer with less functionality. I have been on two dives in which a teammate had a bottom timer fail during the dive.

So, what's the difference?

 

[Kingpatzer]

The moot point is that you just readily admitted that SOME destinations still have NO PDC's AT ALL!

Some destinations don't have 100s. Some destinations don't have doubles. Some destinations don't have extra small or double extra large wet suites. Some destinations don't have a lot of things.

That's why people have to plan their trips. If you need to bring a computer, bring one. My LDS will rent gear for use anywhere in the world - we have a very competitive weekly rate. Which means our students can take the computer they were trained on with them.

 

[boulderjohn]

The moot point is that you just readily admitted that SOME destinations still have NO PDC's AT ALL!

OK, let's step back and look at the big picture.

First of all, PADI is not eliminating tables. Students have the option of learning with tables or eRDPml or computers. There is no movement to go to computers or nothing. In fact, my Courses Director's opinion is that the option will eventually be between the tables and the computer, with the eRDPml dropping out on the theory that students who want electronics ail go with a computer. While that last point is conjecture, he is quite sure the tables will never actually go away.

Next, I have looked at the requirement for the computer option, and they are extensive. Students will know what the computers can do, and they will know how to use them properly. I have not taught this option yet, but I believe it may actually take longer to teach the computer option than the tables.

Finally, the assumption we have in our shop is that anyone choosing the computer option (which has not happened yet) will be expected to purchase a computer and use it during the training. This should pretty much take care of the rental problem.

 

[tomfcrist]

Tables are just as likely to fail as computers.

The tables do not fail. The bottom timer does. which is why i use a watch(Mechanical, not electronic).