in_cavediver
Contributor
SteveDiver:
When doing training, its a restriction, when diving yourself outside of training, its merely a suggestion (unless a dive op requires it).
PADI Depth Restrictions
- Thread starter DavidHickey
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When doing training, its a restriction, when diving yourself outside of training, its merely a suggestion (unless a dive op requires it).
LavaSurfer:
Well that may be so, but it's an SDI Rescue course because TDI doesn't have one.
I'm sure the coin finds it's way to the same people however in either case as inter-wound as they are.
I would hazard a guess that 40 dives is as good as most AOW courses......well, probably better
TDI is the tech branch and as such, other than Nitrox, does not have any recreational courses, that's what SDI was formed for.
Not that I've ever seen this practice used, but even Padi allows for some participation in a rescue class to some degree of their OW students. I'd have to grab the manual for the specifics, but it's in there as I've read it at least twice!
Regards
garyfotodiver
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in_cavediver:
I don't want to beat this dead animal any more, but what makes PADI's depths defensible or objective? I have read the "superagency" standards, and even quoted them on this board. They have limits for OW training dives, but then go on to state 130ft as the recreational limit.
And then, if the ex-Nay SEAL instructor working with my 12 year-old daughter takes her below 60ft during a training dive, do I report him to PADI? I don't think so.
PADI's depth limits are for training dives. A PADI instructor has to follow the standards set during training dives. I tell my students they are trained to dive similar conditions to similar depths. If they want to dive deeper, take it in steps. That means if the max depth of the OW dives was 20', then they are trained to 20'. If they want to dive to 30', that's fine, but take it slow and take that step before going to 40', etc. I also tell them that OW certification is to 60', but that doesn't mean they can't go beyond that with the proper experience. I encourage con ed or diving with more experienced divers, preferably a DM or instructor, before taking those steps. I also tell them that some places (resorts) won't let them dive beyond 60' without AOW. IOW, do what you feel comfortable with and take it one step at a time.
RikRaeder
Contributor
Ok, here's what it says in the Open Water Handbook (PADI's)
P. 204 "General Rules for Using the Recreational Dive Planner"
10. Limit your maximum depth to your training and experience level. Scuba Divers are limited to 12 metres/40 feet. As an Open Water Diver, limit your dives to a maximum depth of 18 metres/60 feet. Divers with greater training and experience should generally limit themselves to a maximum depth of 30 metres/100 feet. Divers with appropriate experience and/or training may dive as deep as 40 metres/130 feet...
Above that passage is a contradictory infobubble "Depth Limits"
*18 m/60 ft Novice
*30m/100 ft Recommended
*40m/130 ft Absolute
My (lowly, inexperienced, and unworthy) interpretation of the above is:
"General Rules," Rules are made to be broken, but one who does so is in the wrong. You can't, say, move the king six spaces at one go in chess and consider it ok if you aren't caught. That's against the rules, so it's wrong.
"training and experience" While allowing for experience, this seems to state that a certain level of training is also expected/required. Of course, it's quite vague. Any training? Equipment maintenance certification? Deep Diving? Nitrox? I'd imagine, that since the rule here is regarding depth, they're talking about Deep Dive training, or at least AOW training (which requires some Deep training to aquire).
"experience and/or training" Regarding 40m/130' apparently states that if you're trained enough to dive at 30/100, with some more experience you can dive to the absolute Rec Dive depth of 40/130.
Do I believe these rules (guidelines are guidelines, rules are rules) are right? I really don't have enough experience to judge. Sounds good to me for now.
Would I ever break these rules if I felt that my knowledge and experience would allow me to do so safely and I had a worthwhile goal in doing so? I'm sure. I'd never cheat against another person in, oh, chess or something. While challenging myself, as in diving, I might be tempted to do so in my own generally risk-averse way.
In my estimation, for the reasons stated above, I would consider these as limits to my diving as a mere OW diver. I'm glad that most of the diving professionals here see things otherwise because in some way the rules/limits may become disappointing to me. I could certainly see how they could be to some of you OW divers with massive skills and experience (being forced to take AOW after hundreds of dives, deep and shallow, etc). It seems to me, that the depths are indeed the limits set by the certifying agency. I'm not making any claims about the efficacy of the secondary dive training, just interpreting what I've read.
I'm not ready to go so deep just yet, myself. I'll probably get my AOW this year for additional training (I'll pick a good instructor) and guided experience. That should remedy the potential disappointment in my case. As in any type of instruction, I'll have to look hard for the right teacher.
Just my 222 cents worth.
P. 204 "General Rules for Using the Recreational Dive Planner"
10. Limit your maximum depth to your training and experience level. Scuba Divers are limited to 12 metres/40 feet. As an Open Water Diver, limit your dives to a maximum depth of 18 metres/60 feet. Divers with greater training and experience should generally limit themselves to a maximum depth of 30 metres/100 feet. Divers with appropriate experience and/or training may dive as deep as 40 metres/130 feet...
Above that passage is a contradictory infobubble "Depth Limits"
*18 m/60 ft Novice
*30m/100 ft Recommended
*40m/130 ft Absolute
My (lowly, inexperienced, and unworthy) interpretation of the above is:
"General Rules," Rules are made to be broken, but one who does so is in the wrong. You can't, say, move the king six spaces at one go in chess and consider it ok if you aren't caught. That's against the rules, so it's wrong.
"training and experience" While allowing for experience, this seems to state that a certain level of training is also expected/required. Of course, it's quite vague. Any training? Equipment maintenance certification? Deep Diving? Nitrox? I'd imagine, that since the rule here is regarding depth, they're talking about Deep Dive training, or at least AOW training (which requires some Deep training to aquire).
"experience and/or training" Regarding 40m/130' apparently states that if you're trained enough to dive at 30/100, with some more experience you can dive to the absolute Rec Dive depth of 40/130.
Do I believe these rules (guidelines are guidelines, rules are rules) are right? I really don't have enough experience to judge. Sounds good to me for now.
Would I ever break these rules if I felt that my knowledge and experience would allow me to do so safely and I had a worthwhile goal in doing so? I'm sure. I'd never cheat against another person in, oh, chess or something. While challenging myself, as in diving, I might be tempted to do so in my own generally risk-averse way.
In my estimation, for the reasons stated above, I would consider these as limits to my diving as a mere OW diver. I'm glad that most of the diving professionals here see things otherwise because in some way the rules/limits may become disappointing to me. I could certainly see how they could be to some of you OW divers with massive skills and experience (being forced to take AOW after hundreds of dives, deep and shallow, etc). It seems to me, that the depths are indeed the limits set by the certifying agency. I'm not making any claims about the efficacy of the secondary dive training, just interpreting what I've read.
I'm not ready to go so deep just yet, myself. I'll probably get my AOW this year for additional training (I'll pick a good instructor) and guided experience. That should remedy the potential disappointment in my case. As in any type of instruction, I'll have to look hard for the right teacher.
Just my 222 cents worth.
in_cavediver
Contributor
garyfotodiver:
As I said, I agree with you but if you find yourself in a court of law explaining you actions, would you want to be in agreement with one of the largest dive certification agencies standards or not. Remember, we are talking now as dive operators with insurance concerns (who may dictate this) as well as our families finacial security.
garyfotodiver:
By absolute standards, yes. If the instructor violated PADI standards and was teaching a PADI class, then PADI's QA department would be the party to get involved. Then again, you may have other knowledge about the individual etc that would explain the standards violation and its your call ultimately. Generally speaking though, I would be leery of an instructor who violated standards as a matter of course during his classes irregardless of his other credentials. (If he didn't do this, what else didn't he do)
c555
Contributor
Im AOW but im a junior diver so my depth limit is 70', but I have broken it numerous times. When I dive w/ a PADI divemaster, we don't go below 70 because she said that once you are a divemaster you have too follow all of Padi's rules.
c555:
In your case with you being a Jr. Thats probably true and a liability issue.
As far as 130' being a rule, its a recommended depth limit not a rule but if I were acting as a DM I would certainly not exceed that limit in many situations due to the liability.
Walter:
I guess he doesn't teach it.
Interesting observations here. The advanced class is only as good as the instructor, students who take mine get taught gas manangement, proper trim, various finning techniques, we work on polishing skills they learned in their basic class (by the way gas management and trim are also taught in basic if the student took my class). We still do the required deep, night and nav dives also adding shooting a bag and a few other skills. Depending on the skill and experience of the students entering the class will dictate what is taught. If I have a very experienced diver I may suggest a Master Scuba Diver class or we will work on areas that he/she needs work on- trim, finning technique, breath control etc as needed. An advanced class is only as good as the instructor teaching it- if they just go through the minimum standards and check boxes- deep , night , nav, fish id etc... the class is useless. A student who spends 6 dives with me will be a better more educated diver when the class is over and will learn much more than just going out and diving with his newly trained buddy.
Also NAUI does not require AOW for Rescue or Advanced Rescue.
Also NAUI does not require AOW for Rescue or Advanced Rescue.
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