OOA Buddy starts to drag you up by your octo - What would you do?

[Diver Dennis]

Wow, another reason the dreaded long hose is dangerous.

Hmmm. Not quite as dangerous as a panicked diver ripping your mask off or kneeing you in the face as you try to grab his legs to keep him down.

I dive both long and short hoses and there is no more "danger" using one or the other, I was only giving an example of the only thing I could see going slightly wrong using it. The short hose would not let you keep your distance from a panicked diver.

 

[Ice9]

I love this graphic...

 

[ArcticDiver]

This is true to a point. There is a threshold where panic sets in. Once you pass that threshold, you operate on basic insticnt, not the drilled procedures and training. The goal of training and expierence is to push that threshold farther away so you can handle more stressors prior to hitting that threshold.

Fundementally, the goal is to prevent panic and address the stressors prior to the onset of panic. A diver who is in trouble, but not panicked, has a lot of options. A diver who is in trouble and panics underwater has few options. That panicked diver also places not only themselves, but those around them at a much higher risk.

You are absolutely correct that a person's humanity limits their ability to cope with any given emergency on any given day.

However, panic is only one factor that may limit coping skills. The person may calmly and thoughfully just not be able to perform. The emergency for that person, on that day may just be beyond their capabilities for a variety of reasons.

 

[ArcticDiver]

No, we can all dream up a situation that is wierd and unusual enough to create panic (and more) but such situations are, by definition, several decimal places out.

Within acceptable limits (and we call all argue about what that exactly is till we're bule in the face, in the final analysis that's a judgement call), yes, I can count on a competent response from my buddies to the sorts of problems that will persent themselves.

I don't expect that from students and I don't expect all buddies to be equally competent (that's why we certify 30 ft., 60 ft., 100 ft., etc.). But when I'm out with another diver who hold a 200 ft card and has several thousand dives under his or her belt and has made hundreds of those dives with me and has been part of my training cadre for a number of years ... well ... I think that I can expect (barring giant squid or something similar) a competent reponse.

First a question: Who certifies in such graduated depths? I'm not familiar with the details of all certifications. But, those I am familiar with all use language to the effect: "you are certified to dive in the conditions and to the depths trained". No specific numerical criteria.

Comment: Remember certifications and compliance with any standards therein are voluntary on the part of the diver who is certified. I'm sure we both know plenty of divers who hold some pretty basic certification cards who regularly do complicated dives; and so so very competently.

Back to the original point: You are absolutely correct you can expect a competent response. But, lots of psychological research and accident analysis in other sports and industry supports the idea that you cannot rely on getting that competent response. So, expect all you want; you may or may not get what you expect.

 

[caseybird]

oh, no doubt...

me too

for what it's worth, we practice an air share excercise every dive.

Now that we're talking nice again, my concern with the long hose relates to it's use around divers who aren't trained in it's use. During a rescue class I observed a training exercise during which an instructor signaled OOA to a student. The student attempted to deploy the long hose, had some issues and both spent extra time without a reg. If the OOA diver was really and truly OOA, the delay could have caused panic leading to an ugly little CF. Not good. I compare this to the Classic octo scenario, with the golden triangle placement that allows the OOA to get to the air without any input by the doner. The doner keeps thier reg, at least one diver isn't OOA. Simple, and it's what students are trained to do.
To save time, training sucks, the big agencies are all corrupt, yada, yada, but that's the system we got. Make your plans accordingly.
I'll buy the long hose, based on the environment and dive conditions, but I wouldn't use it if I didn't know the divers around me were trained in it's deployment.
I wouldn't use a long hose in a resort environment.
Happy Holidays,

 

[H2Andy]

During a rescue class I observed a training exercise during which an instructor signaled OOA to a student. The student attempted to deploy the long hose, had some issues and both spent extra time without a reg.

if i am OOA and my buddy hasn't gotten the reg to me five beats after i signal, i'm going to get it myself

i suspect the instructor let the situation go on for training purposes

and yes, it's an easy move, but it does take some practice to get down smooth

the advantages are as follows:

1. if a paniced diver goes for your primary, you are used to this and will revert to your easy to find second (it's around your neck)

2. the OOA diver is guaranteed a working regulator. finding a dead second may just tip them over to panic.

3. you are better prepared than your OOA buddy to determine that your second is not working and then initiate buddy breathing, AFTER your OOA buddy has had a chance to get some air

4. if it all goes well, you now have extra room between the two of you to manuever, set up, and get ready to ascend. that extra room is priceless when conducting a controlled ascent.

 

[Thalassamania]

First a question: Who certifies in such graduated depths?

Link to AAUS Standards read Page 26

 

[caseybird]

if i am OOA and my buddy hasn't gotten the reg to me five beats after i signal, i'm going to get it myself

i suspect the instructor let the situation go on for training purposes

and yes, it's an easy move, but it does take some practice to get down smooth
.

All of which I agree with, Provided I'm with a diver trained to use a long hose. Otherwise, I'll just stick to a conventional octo.

 

[D_B]

What Andy said
In my OW, I trained to give my primary to the OOA diver because I have no choice (air2) and I did get a longer hose on my primary to make it easier to do just that
I will someday have an octo set up, but I will still donate my primary, for the reasons Andy stated, and because that is the way me, and my buddy trained

I still have my doubts on how fast I could react to the OP's scenario and .. as has been stated, training helps immensely, and puts the odds more in your favor, but it is no guaranty that that is how you'll react in an emergency

 

[Splitlip]

Mods, please move the rest of this discussion to the DIR forum while they debate the long hose!!

That won't work. No debating allowed in the DIR forum.