Octo/Safe Seconds - What I am considering - going overboard?

[bigredbill]

I was wondering if anyone on the board takes 2 safe seconds with them in their standard rig. I have come up with a way I think I would like to configure my gear that is different than I have seen because it would involve taking 2 octo-type devices along with my primary 2nd.

Let me preface this by saying what I am talking about is a sports diving rig - within deco limits, killing fish or taking pictures depending on my ichyocidal tendencies that day. For other more techie dives I would use a different rig with ponies. I am not talking about that kinda diving.

Here is what I am thinking. I would have one octo on a 6 foot yellow hose which is routed behind my tank and back, and bungeed onto the lower part of the tank with surgical tubing. Additionally I would have either a Air-2 type device (leaning towards the Atomic SS1) or an integrated inflator/octo (like Sherwood Shadow) which primarily would be for me if a) something happens to my primary, or b) out of air buddie rips my primary from my mouth.

I have had occasion to use my octo for myself due to problems with my prime during a dive - once when a small crack was on the body of the prime, and once when a large piece of kelp got in the mouthpiece and dislodged at depth - so I find it comforting to have another rig for ME to breathe easily accessible and up front.

But I also really like the idea of giving an out-of-air diver a very easy to find and comforting target, and in fact the octo on the back, IMO, would be just that. When I think of the times in my diving when I really wanted my buddies attention, many times it would be their back I was looking at, and if I really needed to exert myself to get their attention, it ALWAYS was their back I was seeing because they were swimming in the lead. So, in an out of air situation, if my back is turned away, I want to encourage buddie to try to get to me rather than do an emergency ascent. That big yellow hose on my back would seem to me to be quite inviting.

I know simplicity is to be preferred, but my experience has been that if you take care of your gear and buy good stuff to begin with, it works. I have dove for years with a octo/inflator combo without a hitch and have also dove with plain old octo and have never had a real problem there either.

I sure like this config better than the 6 foot primary hose with loops at the waist that I have seen advocated by the DIR folks - that seems like an invitation to become a tangled mess.

Anyone rig themselves up anything like this?

 

[Doc Intrepid]

No.

 

[crpntr133]

My opinion, don't do it. For one thing, I think all of us were taught that the octo was to be within the "golden triangle." if you put it on your back then that's not what we were taught. Something else to think about is what would you do if another divers buddy came to you OOA and couldn't find the right reg? I know it is on a yellow hose so grab the hose and pull, ever second counts when you are OOA.
Diving isn't complicated so lets not make it that way. As for the DIR way, I would do it that way before something on my own. DIR has been around for years and I am sure they have it down to simplicity.

 

[Rick Inman]

I was wondering if anyone on the board takes 2 safe seconds with them in their standard rig. I have come up with a way I think I would like to configure my gear that is different than I have seen because it would involve taking 2 octo-type devices along with my primary 2nd.

Some would say that less is more. Another something to go wrong. Also, there are already too many different systems. I have seen dive groups do the following before a dive:
"OK, now Fred here has the octo in his pocket, Larry's is in the ball thing, Jim has his around his neck, Mark has a pony and Bill has the Air2. So Fred and Larry pass the octo, Jim and Mark and Bill pass the primary. Everybody got that?"

I have had occasion to use my octo for myself due to problems with my prime during a dive

Not sure that adding more gear with uniquer configuration is the solution here. I noticed (in another post) you bought your Z90 2nd hand. Maybe that is the problem.

But I also really like the idea of giving an out-of-air diver a very easy to find and comforting target, and in fact the octo on the back, IMO, would be just that.

I hope your back is NOT the most convenient location for you buddy. This is a buddy skill issue, also not solved by adding gear, IMHO

I sure like this config better than the 6 foot primary hose with loops at the waist that I have seen advocated by the DIR folks - that seems like an invitation to become a tangled mess.

Have dived with many using the DIR configuration and this turns out not to be the case. You might hook up with a DIR diver and see the system in action.

 

[Don Burke]

What were you planning on doing if the second stage on your back starts to freeflow?

I prefer to have the reg in my mouth with a yellow housing and on a 7 foot hose. The backup is black and bungeed around my neck.

The plan is that the OOA diver will either grab the regulator out of my mouth or I am going to give it to him. In either case, I go for the backup.

I have never seen or heard of a DIR diver using a 6 foot hose. 7 foot and 5 foot are the lengths normally used.

It would seem a second stage sticking out behind you would pose a far greater hazard than a 7 foot hose. The only problem I have ever had is the one time I managed to knock the hose out of my belt on the way up a boat ladder. I am better at it now.

 

[miketsp]

And if your rear mounted reg comes loose doing a giant stride and hooks on the ladder or comes loose while submerged?
This doesn't sound like a good idea.

 

[bigredbill]

I certainly appreciate most of the comments and thoughts here, but this particular posting is arrogant and not helpful, so of course being the arrogant idiot I am, I must respond.

Some would say that less is more. Another something to go wrong. Also, there are already too many different systems. I have seen dive groups do the following before a dive:
"OK, now Fred here has the octo in his pocket, Larry's is in the ball thing, Jim has his around his neck, Mark has a pony and Bill has the Air2. So Fred and Larry pass the octo, Jim and Mark and Bill pass the primary. Everybody got that?".

This is certainly a problem if diving in groups of four or more, but I think I would probably be staying on the boat this dive if we are doing plain ole sport diving. Either that, or I will go off by myself and do a solo dive rather than try to be responsible for that group of knuckleheads. Remember, I am falling off a boat looking at fishies, and my buddy might be anyone on the liveaboard, or anyone in my dive club. They might be experienced, or this might be their first dive after certification. I have and will dive will all varieties of skill levelsm and I consider part of the joy of the sport.

Part of getting ready for the dive is familiarity with your buddies equipment. If you don't have time to do that, don't go. Sorry, I am not willing to be responsible for 3 other divers unless it is in the context of a much more technical, planned out dive. I can certainly figure out where my buddies' stuff is. This is a red herring issue.

Not sure that adding more gear with uniquer configuration is the solution here. I noticed (in another post) you bought your Z90 2nd hand. Maybe that is the problem..

Maybe the problem is that your pompous attitude makes it impossible for you to consider an idea that didn't originate with you. I assure you that I am very well equiped, junior.

I hope your back is NOT the most convenient location for you buddy. This is a buddy skill issue, also not solved by adding gear, IMHO.

This is a laughable statement that I would expect only from someone who has not really done much diving in a marine environment. Someone who has spent time in the pool might think that, however. If gear and procedure are the focus of your dive, you're right. If marine life and the ocean are the focus of the dive, you are wrong.

If you are a good skilled experienced diver, I will be staying out of your underwear, and expect you will be staying out of mine. That means you might be seeing my back, or I will be seeing yours. Let's check on each other frequently. I want my bud to know I am there to help them whatever the situation demands, but if they are experienced and competent, they ARE NOT the focus of my dive, and I do not wish to be the focus of their dive. Things are different with a new diver, and face to face or side by side buddy contact is more important for their psychological well being.

If I am leading a portion of the dive and we are on the move, my bud WILL be seeing my back. I will check on him/her every 20 seconds or so, sooner if limits of vis or their experience requires, but we are attempting to have some fun, not simply playing Johnny Paranoid.

In my proposed config the octo is clearly visable thru about 180 degrees around my body. When octo is in any other position, with the possible exception of my mouth, it is not as clearly visible. Next time you dive, look at your buddies cumberbund, and then look at your buddies tank - which can you see better most of the time? After all, what am I trying to do when I take down an octo? I want to encourage my buddie to come to me for air if he/she has a problem, not to try an emergency ascent or to panic. I want them to come to me in as calm a condition as is possible. If they know they can have my reg from my mouth or the octo on my back, they will know instinctively that coming to me is the right choice regardless of what phase of the dive we are in, or our orientation to each other.

Have dived with many using the DIR configuration and this turns out not to be the case. You might hook up with a DIR diver and see the system in action.

I have seen the so called DIR system in "action", and it's strength is in commonality between all divers having the same set up. I think this is a very good idea when you are talking about dives where you regularly are risking some gas noxiousness that might affect consiousness or judgement, but in a pure sports diving context I think it is really a bit melodramatic to think it is a better way to go. Sort of like saying that all Cessna 150 pilots should be on pure oxygen on landing because all F-18 Hornet pilots are on it before carrier landings.

As for all the other points made, I am concerned about the possibility of freeflow, but is it really any different a situation than if it is in front of me? I think I will deal with this by using both a mouthpiece cover attached to the bungie, and an adjustable 2nd as the octo - maybe an old 108 or such. I have made many dives and just have not had this problem.

The concern someone expressed about catching it on the ladder when doing a giant stride off a boat did give me pause, but I think I just need to be careful, after all, if my tank is that close to the boat edge I really haven't done a giant stride worth a damn and probably I am risking hurting myself in other more serious ways. And wouldn't I have a similar problem with a tank mounted pony, a halide light, or any number of other possible configs?

Another concern I do have is the back octo getting squished in the process of taking the rig off and on. I think only experimentation will tell me how much of a problem this really is.

I think I will try this config and see how it works out, and I make a prediction. My buddies will LOVE IT!! Knowing they can have the reg out of my mouth OR the reg off my back at any time will make them feel very comfortable. I think after they dive with me they are likely to feel that their next dive bud is rather poorly equipped.

I should mention that I saw my proposed setup on a diver in an Canada. When I saw his setup, I just said to myself, "Of course." It is obviously a better way to go once you are in the water moving around. Maybe there are real problems with it which only trying it out will reveal.

 

[rescuediver009]

I think that if you are doing this on your lighter duty, less strenuous dives, you would be fine withy our SS1. Actually to be honest it sounds quite redundant to have that configuration. Your behind the back plan would be too confusing I think. Because as soon as you have a problem, what are you doing? You are ending the dive anyhow right? Right. Your SS1 would work great,just make sure that your buddy knows that this is the system that you are using. And that they should scarethe @#%$ out of you by grabbing for your primary out of your mouth in an OOA.

 

[Rick Inman]

...this particular posting is arrogant and not helpful...

Sorry. Didn't mean to get you riled up. You asked for opinions, I gave mine. I never intended anything personal, just commenting on the idea. Again, sorry if I offended you.

Maybe the problem is that your pompous attitude makes it impossible for you to consider an idea that didn't originate with you.

Maybe. You have switched subjects from the subject of gear configuration to ME personally, calling me names, etc. Thanks for the input, and I will take a look at how I post, because I certainly meant no offense.

This is a laughable statement that I would expect only from someone who has not really done much diving in a marine environment.

You are right again. I have about 500 dives in the ocean, most in cold water (most in S. California, and some in Puget Sound) and some in warm waters (Hawaii, Mexico, Guam). Some quite a while ago, and some recently. However, many on this board have far more experience than I have. Many are far superior divers than I am, and I would absolutely seek their advise. I learn a lot from them.

If you are a good skilled experienced diver, I will be staying out of your underwear...

GREAT! We agree on this, at least!

I have seen the so called DIR system in "action", ...I think it is really a bit melodramatic to think it is a better way to go.

You think that it is melodramatic to think that the DIR might be a better way to go than a rear octo? Well, alright...

I assure you that I am very well equipped, junior.

JUNIOR??? Why, thank you, sir! That's the nicest thing I've been called all day!

 

[android]

The Atomic SS1 is very breathable so there is no real need for a spare octo for yourself. Once you have a first failure, you're leaving anyway, right?

As to buddies, I just tell them to take the regulator out of my mouth if they need it and I will worry about the rest. Several have grinned, but none seem confused.

BTW, I like your Cessna vs. F/A-18 analogy.