Not Feeling Well? New Hand signal.

[kinoons]

So, other than OW buddie diving, we are in complete agreement. There is NO student training on signalling to their instructor they are in trouble. This isn't in any training manual, isn't taught, and is an issue that all respondants can not document whatsoever. Students are NOT taught how to signal if they need help, nor is this part of any training syllubus. And no one here can find any documentation otherwise.

(This is NOT the same as ending a dive, for any reason.)
(And reffering to nebulus hand signals that could be subject to wide interpertation, dosen't cut it either.)

No, not at all. You’re being quite obtuse here, if not downright trolling.

Students are given multiple hand signals to communicate with. While some can be a little vague the intent is to signal that something is wrong and they either need time, help, or to go to the surface.

As has been previously discussed, you don’t need to tell someone “if you need help, ask for it”, none the less all but the most incompetent instructors will make sure that point comes across.

So no, I don’t agree with your conclusion at all. Sorry the evidence doesn’t satisfy your (non-realistic) opinion, but that’s a you problem, not an us problem.

 

[DiveProKoko]

....There is NO student training on signalling to their instructor they are in trouble. This isn't in any training manual, isn't taught, and is an issue that all respondants can not document whatsoever. Students are NOT taught how to signal if they need help, nor is this part of any training syllubus. And no one here can find any documentation otherwise....

Except there are ARE several hand signals for nearly every scenario a student might encounter underwater to indicate they are "in trouble"...and they're taught in EVERY OW course manual...and documented. In fact, my students use them to tell me things all the time. To drive the point home; if you, as a certified diver, are in trouble and need to let your buddy know, how do you do it? Exactly! You use a hand signal to indicate the problem. And where did you learn to do that? In your OW course, because your instructor taught you to do it! This is reaching the point of ridiculousness, so I'm out. Good luck to you.

 

[boulderjohn]

So, other than OW buddie diving, we are in complete agreement. There is NO student training on signalling to their instructor they are in trouble.

I haven't see a single person agree with you. Any time anyone responds, they seem to be, as I am, in complete and total exasperation at your seeming inability to understand a concept so very, very simple.

So you would like dive agencies to add specific instruction on how the student should signal to an instructor that they are in trouble. As per an earlier post, you would like dive agencies to add instructions showing that the onus to signal that trouble lies with the student. If the following language were added to the course, would it make you happy?

Having Trouble During Instruction

Whose job is it to signal the instructor that I am having trouble?
The instructor or a certified assistant will be monitoring you at all times during the course. If you get into trouble and need help, the person who should communicate that situation to the instructor or certified assistant is you. Do not rely upon other students to pick up on your distress and make the signal for you. If you are taking the confined water session in a recreation center swimming pool, do not rely upon other recreation center patrons, such as people playing basketball in a nearby gym, to observe your distress and communicate that to the professional monitoring you. If you are in a dive center's pool, do not rely upon the staff working the retail floor next door. In open water, do not rely upon people on the surface. Signal your problem yourself.

What signal should I use to indicate to the instructor or certified assistant that I am in distress?
You have already been taught hand signals that you would use to indicate distress to a buddy during a dive. You may be surprised to learn that your instructor or certified assistant are also trained to know those signals, and they will respond to them the same way a buddy will respond during a dive. You don't need to use different signals in a class situation than you would use on a dive with a buddy.

 

[ChrisDee]

No, not at all. You’re being quite obtuse here, if not downright trolling.

Students are given multiple hand signals to communicate with. While some can be a little vague the intent is to signal that something is wrong and they either need time, help, or to go to the surface.

As has been previously discussed, you don’t need to tell someone “if you need help, ask for it”, none the less all but the most incompetent instructors will make sure that point comes across.

So no, I don’t agree with your conclusion at all. Sorry the evidence doesn’t satisfy your (non-realistic) opinion, but that’s a you problem, not an us problem.

No, I'm not "trolling." You people either have an agenda, or are incabable of listining. It is a very simple request to provide documentation. And you can't , WHY???? Because there is none.

 

[Umpman]

So, other than OW buddie diving, we are in complete agreement. There is NO student training on signalling to their instructor they are in trouble. This isn't in any training manual, isn't taught, and is an issue that all respondants can not document whatsoever. Students are NOT taught how to signal if they need help, nor is this part of any training syllubus. And no one here can find any documentation otherwise.

(This is NOT the same as ending a dive, for any reason.)
(And reffering to nebulus hand signals that could be subject to wide interpertation, dosen't cut it either.)

I completely disagree. As @marsh9077 stated, part of the standards and requirements of teching for Dive 1, is that students recognize and demonstrate hand signals including “something’s wrong” (hand wobble). This is one of the first signals that is taught along with OK and Go Up.

The instructor should be going over this during the pre dive briefing and explaining that the student can end the dive. If an instructor doesn’t do this, or is unable to recognize that a student may be having trouble (see signs of a panicked or scared diver) then maybe that instructor should stop teaching.

It doesn’t matter if the course manual doesn’t say “tell your student they can end the dive”. Am instructor should be doing it anyway. No doing so is an example of lazy instructors who only want to teach minimum standards. These types of instructors are the problem. I’m tired of seeing instructors only teach minimum standards, skip things they deem “not important” (like how to snorkel) and only reviewing skills once. teach more than is in the book, that will truly make safe and competent divers who fall in love with the sport

 

[kinoons]

No, I'm not "trolling." You people either have an agenda, or are incabable of listining. It is a very simple request to provide documentation. And you can't , WHY???? Because there is none.

We have listened, and others have provided what I believe to be ample examples of how students are instructed to communicate problems with hand signals underwater.

Sorry those examples don’t meet your absurdly high evidence standards. Everyone else is happy. When everyone but you is happy with how things are done perhaps the issue lies with you instead of everyone else?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Basic open water signals for "problem" are well documented and well taught. This is low hanging fruit. I find it hard to believe that any open water student isn't taught to use the "problem" signal to inform anyone that they have an issue, and I freely admit being rather cynical about the quality of most open water instruction. I don't think this one is being missed.

This is the basic scuba forum, and I believe the stricter rules for this forum have been followed by those who disagree that this signal has merit. We are now being accused of having an agenda or not listening. For the former, while I freely admit that I am not PADI's biggest fan, I think I've laid out clearly the basis for my disagreement. For the latter, we are listening. And a number of people have provided documentation on when to use the problem signal and when to terminate the dive.

I think most people here on in agreement that the documentation for using the "problem" is all encompassing: from dive buddies (hopefully newly certified divers will dive with the buddy system) to dive guides to their instructors during any courses in which they participate. It sounds like the OP is asking for language stating explicity to the open water student that if they have a problem that they signal "problem" to their instructor. That's already covered.

I think we are just going around and around in circles, so I'm out and just going to use the ignore button for this, as all the documentation provided by several people, by logic eloquently expressed by an experienced PADI instructor as well as others, the OP is still not satisfied.

I don't know if this violates the rules of this forum, but there is irony for the demand by the OP for documentation given their claim of NOAA requiring during the 30 minute float test with hands out of the water, but never providing any documentation supporting that claim. All documentation provided never supported that claim.

I hope this also doesn't violate the rules of this forum, but I can't help but think of this scene:

"There's no pleasing some people." "That's what Jesus said sir!"

EDIT: Someone commented in the scuba accidents FB group on how does this signal work at night?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

So how is that signal better than pointing to a specific part of the body?

Because maybe there isn’t a specific part of the body to point to, just an overall very ill feeling. This new hand signal covers that.
For instance, have you ever had C0 poisoning? I have. The symptoms were very strange and not just isolated to feeling nauseous or sick to my stomach. There was a whole disorientation feeling and my brain was not functioning properly along with a general feeling that something was very wrong.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Because maybe there isn’t a specific part of the body to point to, just an overall very ill feeling. This new hand signal covers that.
For instance, have you ever had C0 poisoning? I have. The symptoms were very strange and not just isolated to feeling nauseous or sick to my stomach. There was a whole disorientation feeling and my brain was not functioning properly along with a general feeling that something was very wrong.

And if you just point to the center of your body, isn't that enough?

And as I brought up in my last comment (only coming back as I received notice), how would this work during a night dive?

 

[VikingDives]

And again, could you please show me in any OW course, from the OW course sylyyylbus where these hand signals are taught? And in Australia, the outstreched thumb with the outstreched pinkey is considered: "Hang Loose," or "Relax."

Point being, show me from the OW course where any student can "thumb" a dive. Where is that taught in any OW course? I need documents, not opinions or clips from the internet or magazines.

This thread has gone from:

1. A demand for documentation of "any diver can thumb a dive at any time," which was provided for OP from three different agencies, by my count;

to

2. A demand that someone show him documentation of instructors being trained to react to student problems;

and now finally,

3. A demand for documentation of students being trained specifically that they should communicate with their instructors when there is a problem.

see: Moving the goalposts - Wikipedia