Not Feeling Well? New Hand signal.

[boulderjohn]

Where is the teaching, documented, that says to a student do this if you feel this way or your in trouble,.

Just to put it another way....

The student who is feeling something is wrong, something that is not evident to the instructor or certified assistant, gives the "something's wrong" signal and then points to the problem. What else is necessary?

If there is anything more serious, it should be patently obvious to the instructor or certified assistant who is monitoring the student.

 

[jlcnuke]

Point is during a recent survey of courses, this subject was NOT taught. And I really do need documentation.

Something is wrong is... well, covering both "I have a minor issue with my ear" as well as "I have big problem that isn't being out of air", and following it with a thumbs up signal clearly communicates "this is a significant problem and we need to go to the surface". Not sure why anything else would be necessary honestly.

I have a problem (standard signal)- "points to ear", clearly communicates an issue with an ear that is probably minor, but if it's major we thumb the dive.
I have a problem (standard signal) - "points to calf", clearly communicates a cramp and we try to deal with that but if it's worse/doesn't get better, we thumb the dive.
I have a problem (standard signal) - "gives the *stay* or *hold* signal", clearly communicates they have an issue but are trying to sort it out there by themselves, if it doesn't get better, we can thumb the dive.
I have a problem (standard signal) - "gives thumbs up", clearly communicates there is a problem that is serious enough that we're ending the dive (who cares what the problem is at that point, we can talk about it on the surface).

I'm not sure that trying to come up with a specific signal for every possible problem underwater that a recreational diver could encounter, and trying to teach all of those to OW students, is the right answer when the established signals that are already taught can be used for pretty much every scenario.

This really seems like "a solution looking for a problem", not the other way around to me.

If that isn't instinctive to someone in a class, where we teach them the signals and ensure they understand that anyone can thumb the dive at any time for any reason (which has literally been part of pretty much every course I've ever heard of or taken that involves being in the water, either directly in the materials or as conveyed by the instructor (on more advanced classes), then there has been a major failure in the training from the instructor or a complete lack of paying attention by the student.

 

[lowwall]

Just to put it another way....

If there is anything more serious, it should be patently obvious to the instructor or student who is monitoring the student.

 

[DreadnoughtNH]

what's wrong with the "something's wrong" hand waggle, and then pointing to what's bothering you (head for headache, knee joint for cramp, stomach for stomach ache, 'he's crazy' finger for dizzy, etc.).

This new signal adds nothing new to communication other than ambiguity. Agreed with the common thread here; if something is off enough for someone to give this signal, thumbs up and end the dive. Quit making new gang signs for us to figure out!

 

[BlueTrin]

what's wrong with the "something's wrong" hand waggle, and then pointing to what's bothering you (head for headache, knee joint for cramp, stomach for stomach ache, 'he's crazy' finger for dizzy, etc.).

This new signal adds nothing new to communication other than ambiguity. Agreed with the common thread here; if something is off enough for someone to give this signal, thumbs up and end the dive. Quit making new gang signs for us to figure out!

I think someone mentioned this above too

 

[VikingDives]

Thanks for that. Appreciate the effort.

But what some of us are looking for is the signal from student to instructor, that I'm sick, or I need help, or something in the sylubus for a student to call for assistance??? Outside of the Buddy chapter. IE how does a student call for help?

But thanks for what you found, it will be a big help.

Of concern is some belive that the signal for "distress" (on the surface) is also taught as the same as distress underwater. As far as I can tell no agency worldwide, except BSAC, teaches any distress signal underwater.

And also IMO, (I have recently audited a number of on line , zoom, and in person OW courses) the amount of time spent practicing, demonstrating, and actually testing the students on their understanding of how to communicate distress underwater has ranged from zero to less than 5 seconds. Most courses show the hand signal card,..and be done with it. IMO this is a sorry state of affairs.

I think that even the most marginal instructor would take a signal of "there's a problem" from a student as cause for immediate attention. If the instructor can't figure out what the problem is, in an open water course, I've never seen any response other than writing a note, or going to the surface to talk about the problem.

As far as your discussion of identifying stress, and how that's communicated, that is conventionally begun in rescue class. Some of us go above and beyond that, but the general idea goes something like this:

Open Water - learn how to keep yourself alive and out of trouble under water. "Diving is fun!"

Advanced - Learn to do a few things and get exposed to some additional information that should allow you to dive safely in more challenging conditions (deep, night, when you have to navigate to go somewhere...). "Diving is More Fun!"

Rescue - Learn how to pay attention to yourself and others to recognize signs of stress. Learn how to safely intervene (or not) when there's a problem. "Diving can be dangerous!"

In a perfect world, I'd get paid a couple of thousand dollars per student and teach all the above in an introductory course, but we don't live in that world. On the other hand, the current model, inadequate as some of us find it, is entirely sufficient for the vast majority of divers to survive their dives as evidenced by the low level of fatalities that are reported.

That isn't to say that things couldn't be better, but the market drives the kind of classes that instructors deliver, and those classes are often the minimum necessary because students want cheap courses. If the market demanded GUE courses, or 80 hours of training in the pool, then you'd get just that, but I can tell you that by charging $499 for an open water course, I can pretty much ensure that I'll have a maximum of two open water students per month. If I charged $299 like some of the folks around me do, I could have 20 students a month just like my competition.

 

[johndiver999]

what's wrong with the "something's wrong" hand waggle, and then pointing to what's bothering you (head for headache, knee joint for cramp, stomach for stomach ache, 'he's crazy' finger for dizzy, etc.).

This new signal adds nothing new to communication other than ambiguity. Agreed with the common thread here; if something is off enough for someone to give this signal, thumbs up and end the dive. Quit making new gang signs for us to figure out!

This is along the lines of my feelings as well. I've had buddies who signal "cold". Like no sheet, it is below 45 degrees and it is freezing...but what do you want me to do about you being cold? If you want to bail on the dive then tell me, but do we have a whole discussion about me feeling the cold as well and still have no consensus as to what to do about it? If you want to go up because you are cold,, then show me cold and the thumb.

Don't try to signal stuff to me that I can not fix, nor signal things that are not worthy of some sort of response, action, or an urgent need for me to know about......has been my motto.

I've somewhat regressed to pointing the middle finger at whatever is broken or a problem and this seems to work pretty well in most cases, although I had a buddy not too long ago who wasn't sharp on the uptake, so I can only surmise that he must have concluded that I wanted to stop and have sex with my scooter at 90 feet, so he scootered away- to give me privacy, I guess.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This is along the lines of my feelings as well. I've had buddies who signal "cold". Like no sheet, it is below 45 degrees and it is freezing...but what do you want me to do about you being cold? If you want to bail on the dive then tell me, but do we have a whole discussion about me feeling the cold as well and still have no consensus as to what to do about it? If you want to go up because you are cold,, then show me cold and the thumb.

Don't try to signal stuff to me that I can not fix, nor signal things that are not worthy of some sort of response, action, or an urgent need for me to know about......has been my motto.

I've somewhat regressed to pointing the middle finger at whatever is broken or a problem and this seems to work pretty well in most cases, although I had a buddy not too long ago who must have thought I wanted to stop and have sex with my scooter at 90 feet.

Hey now, before I had a pee valve in my dry suit, I once had to pee really badly on a dive. While I tried to signal this (I'll let y'all paint a picture in your minds), i gave up, signaled that I'm cold and thumbed the dive.

This was also before i invested in an undergarment, so my buddy was kind of p!assed at me for being a cheap bastard.

But he forgave me when I explained that I had to p!ss like a race horse!

 

[pauldw]

I need it from a written course Student manual. I need the documentation.

Why?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Why?