Not Feeling Well? New Hand signal.

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Ending a dive (for us) is simply crossed forearms followed ...

You mean this?

I'm having trouble finding an image of crossed forearms meaning to end the dive. Of course, I stopped teaching for PADI in 2017, and a lot may have changed since then.

 

[ChrisDee]

View attachment 783628

I'm sure it was in your course too.

Thanks for that. Appreciate the effort.

But what some of us are looking for is the signal from student to instructor, that I'm sick, or I need help, or something in the sylubus for a student to call for assistance??? Outside of the Buddy chapter. IE how does a student call for help?

But thanks for what you found, it will be a big help.

Of concern is some belive that the signal for "distress" (on the surface) is also taught as the same as distress underwater. As far as I can tell no agency worldwide, except BSAC, teaches any distress signal underwater.

And also IMO, (I have recently audited a number of on line , zoom, and in person OW courses) the amount of time spent practicing, demonstrating, and actually testing the students on their understanding of how to communicate distress underwater has ranged from zero to less than 5 seconds. Most courses show the hand signal card,..and be done with it. IMO this is a sorry state of affairs.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

But what some of us are looking for is the signal from student to instructor, that I'm sick, or I need help, or something in the sylubus for a student to call for assistance??? Outside of the Buddy chapter. IE how does a student call for help?

Are you asking as being an instructor yourself or a student?

Let's just focus on open water courses. Instructors should (should is a dangerous word as it isn't always the case) be monitoring for students' stress level. During the course, instructors should be building a rapport with their students so that their students freely express any concerns or anxiety that they may have. Unfortunately, sometimes students hide things. I had one student who had a phobia of dark water and her father who was in the class, knew this and also didn't tell me. Fortunately I had two assistants in that class, so when she lost it on the descent down the line at the start of OW1, one of them took her back to shore.

The other case was a non-incident where one of my students had the same fear, but he was a 6'5" 280 lb firefighter. He didn't have qualms about breaking through walls (he wrote the training guidelines for doing just that for his department), but was afraid of the dark water.

These are things that instructors need to learn about students. These incidents were when I was early in my teaching and I have since learned to discuss this with students. When my students hear about the firefighter (he was a tank. If he would ever be hit by a car, you'd dial AAA instead of 911), they relax a fair bit and I hope it helps develop rapport.

But I digress.

When instructors have students do skills, they ask if the students are okay and ready to perform a skill. Before I taught neutrally buoyant and trimmed, students who were not comfortable in the water would shake their head no. I would ask "problem?". If they didn't settle down, I'd just signal up to address any concerns at the surface.

Stressed students don't learn and it is an instructors' job to maximize learning/retention. It is not to slam people through a course and move onto the next one.

TL;DR: a student signals a problem by signalling "problem". They do not signal "okay" when an instructor signals "okay". If they have a dive light, they motion back and forth.

Instruction does not proceed until issue is resolve IF it can be resolved. Training can always be resumed another day.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I think this signal is incredibly stupid.

 

[DiveProKoko]

But what some of us are looking for is the signal from student to instructor, that I'm sick, or I need help, or something in the sylubus for a student to call for assistance??? Outside of the Buddy chapter. IE how does a student call for help?

I think you're asking for a whole bunch of redundant things, my friend. Things you were already taught and that every certifying agency that I know of worldwide covers in their OW courses. Students are taught to get the instructor's (or buddy's) attention by signaling. That can be a hand signal or audible signal. Give the buddy/instructor the "something's wrong" hand signal, and point to the problem. If it can't be sorted out underwater, or the buddy wants to call the dive, they give the ascend (thumbs up) signal and you go up. In the case of the new hand signal you showed, IMHO it's pointless. Signal "something is wrong" and point to your stomach. If you want to end the dive, end it. If not, there's no point in signaling really.

 

[DiveProKoko]

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I think this signal is incredibly stupid.

I agree. Pointless. There's already a universal hand signal for "something's wrong."

 

[boulderjohn]

But what some of us are looking for is the signal from student to instructor, that I'm sick, or I need help, or something in the sylubus for a student to call for assistance??? Outside of the Buddy chapter. IE how does a student call for help?

The signals for something being wrong and the signals for distress are covered in the academic portion of the class before the student gets in the water. The signals are the same whether in a class or on a dive. The student must always be monitored by an instructor or certified assistant, so any signal that something is wrong should receive an immediate response. When an instructor is specifically teaching a skill to a student, the first step in the process is for the instructor to signal the question "are you OK?", after which the student responds as is appropriate.

 

[ChrisDee]

When you teach a class, you go over what the student has learned through outside reading. You do something similar when you check out a student who has completed eLearning. Signals, including thumbing the dive and indicating that something is wrong, are in the first section of the PADI class. Both signals are on the final exam.

One of the things that is taught is that thumbing the dive is a "command signal." If it is given, it must receive a response. The buddy returns the thumb. The dive is over, and the buddies ascend. This makes two points obvious.

1. An instructor who does not in some way point out that something being wrong is a reason to end the dive is a babbling idiot.
2. A student who does not understand without being told that something being wrong is a good reason to end the dive is equally idiotic.

Are you saying that as an OW student, you would not understand that something being wrong is a reason to end the dive? Are you saying that as an OW student, you would believe you are required to complete the dive as originally planned, no matter what happens to you during that dive?

Thanks John, but I need it from a written course Student manual. I need the documentation.

For example:

"Be watchful for signs of diver stress and anxiety, and act
quickly and appropriately when you see them."

"Levels of Supervision
1. Direct Supervision – Observe and evaluate student diver
ability to perform skills and understand theoretical
knowledge. Do not delegate this responsibility to
certified assistants except as outlined in specific course
standards or professional membership standards.
2. Indirect Supervision –
a. Dive site: Be present and in control of the activities,
but not necessarily directly supervising all activities.
Approve dive activities, oversee the planning,
preparation, equipment inspections, entries, exits
and debriefings and be prepared to quickly enter the
water."

"1. During briefing, recognize the hand signals for “okay,”
“something is wrong,” “ear problem,” “low air,” “up/
end the dive,” “stay with your buddy,” and the audible
and visual signal for “look at me.”"

The above were taken from a popular Instructor manual.
None of the above is directed at a student. Where is the teaching, documented, that says to a student do this if you feel this way or your in trouble,.......put another way, where is the directive, or verifiable information putting the onus of calling for help upon the student? I mean after all it is their responsibility to alert others for help?

The question is, where is the "I'm in trouble, hand signal"? Or "I'm sick" hand signal?
Or does everyone take the generic "something wrong" hand signal as the same meaning.
Do we need a hand signal that clearly states: I'm in trouble and I want you (the instructor ) right now, as in I'm in some kind of emergency? IMO the current state of instruction does'nt come close to what we curently have and the current instructional material dosn't come close to teaching this.

Thanks.

 

[ChrisDee]

I think you're asking for a whole bunch of redundant things, my friend. Things you were already taught and that every certifying agency that I know of worldwide covers in their OW courses. Students are taught to get the instructor's (or buddy's) attention by signaling. That can be a hand signal or audible signal. Give the buddy/instructor the "something's wrong" hand signal, and point to the problem. If it can't be sorted out underwater, or the buddy wants to call the dive, they give the ascend (thumbs up) signal and you go up. In the case of the new hand signal you showed, IMHO it's pointless. Signal "something is wrong" and point to your stomach. If you want to end the dive, end it. If not, there's no point in signaling really.

Point is during a recent survey of courses, this subject was NOT taught. And I really do need documentation.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Point is during a recent survey of courses, this subject was NOT taught. And I really do need documentation.

What/where is this survey?

 

[boulderjohn]

Where is the teaching, documented, that says to a student do this if you feel this way or your in trouble,.......put another way, where is the directive, or verifiable information putting the onus of calling for help upon the student? I mean after all it is their responsibility to alert others for help?

So you want to know how the student is supposed to know if help is needed, the onus is on the person who needs help to call for it. Really?

When in the course of human events does someone other than the person who needs help call for it? If a person is being attacked on the street, does that person look around to see if there is anyone who can be asked to call for help, or does that person just call for help? I am going to venture to say that most people understand that if they need help, the onus is on them to call for it.

Or does everyone take the generic "something wrong" hand signal as the same meaning.
Do we need a hand signal that clearly states: I'm in trouble and I want you (the instructor ) right now, as in I'm in some kind of emergency? IMO the current state of instruction does'nt come close to what we curently have and the current instructional material dosn't come close to teaching this.

In scuba, the student who needs help can give the "something's wrong" signal or any other appropriate signal, such as "out of air" if the need be.

I have no idea what you are calling for as a need. You have me totally baffled.