Not Feeling Well? New Hand signal.

[tursiops]

Having students learn sign language is also useful. However, see @boulderjohn 's post #149.

Surely we understand the bulk of the market wanting the shortest possible courses. It isn't something that I cater to (my OW course is targeting cold water divers, so I have 8 OW dives instead of 4, but this includes dry suit certification and nitrox. That eliminates 99% of divers for me). Given that courses are focused on this market segment, there is only so much information a person will absorb.

So focus on what is important.

You have it backwards.

No one has been able to make a case that this is "better."


yeah, most people are narced don't realize it. Some are in outright denial. I know diving to 180 feet on air was problematic with narcosis. One of my buddies wouldn't signal back "Ok". Instead, his head followed my light on the lake floor like a cat watching a laser pointer. And at the surface, he denied he was narced. At shallow depth, he'd never fail to respond back "okay" with his light.

I knew I was narced as I knew I was at depth. I moved very slowly so that I wouldn't feel it.

There was no reason for your buddy to terminate a dive over a camera issue, unless he's filming for National Geographic.


Wrong. It is or anything. Illness, not feeling it, need help with a cramp, the list is long. If it cannot be resolved (camera issues are an obvious exception) end the dive.

You serious?


That's actually comical.

It isn't about being smarter than everyone else, including agencies. Remember agencies are a business. They need to focus on what is important (like DAN's top 10 changes in their 2016 report) so we have less of this: Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

My priority isn't revenue. What I propose would actually reduce revenue for most agencies, except those like RAID that require neutral buoyancy and trim in their courses.


Bwahahahaha!!!! Yeah, it will be used, but in small numbers. It will likely be abandoned by most, as other divers will never have seen it before or have forgotten it. If they forget "problem", then Lord help them.

This blow hard zealot has always known that. All of us do. But we are still free to express our opinion. The backlash from an even smaller group of people isn't going to make a sh_t bit of difference in us continuing to express our opinion.

How nice. No one cares.


Yeah, 3 years. Time to sh_t or get off the pot. That isn't instantly. I've written training materials myself. It is exhausting, but agencies have far more resources than I do. This should have taken 6 months max.

You are really positive about he DAN 2016 report. But not the DAN suggestion to use this "new" signal. So, nothing new is allowed post 2016? LOL.

 

[tursiops]

Actually although I didn’t like this idea at first, the way @tursiops described it kind of make sense. Obviously, should weight the benefit against adding another sign but it feels less silly than what I thought at first …

The workflow, wobbly, feeling ill, point at part causing problem, gives a bit more information. But I was wondering (maybe @tursiops, you’d know this): are there previous cases where this would have saved a life or made probably a difference?

I'm sure there is no peer-reviewed data set about this, and I'm sure that if I provided any stories/anecdotes/persona experiences, the same few people would bash me for not having real data. Imagine if I care.

I will say that having a bit more info has never likely contributed to a worse decision. In the case of my buddy and the failed camera, it was not an emergency, of course., there was no need to come to the surface, but knowing why her diving behavior changed mid-dive was very comforting to just continuing the dive.

It seems much the confusion and angst in this thread has been from two things: (1) misunderstanding what the signal is saying and how it is used, and (2) thinking it replaces some other signal. I suppose a 3rd thing is "you can't tell ME how to dive!" that we keep hearing, and maybe a little bit of "If PADI said it then it is just a money grab."

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You are really positive about he DAN 2016 report. But not the DAN suggestion to use this "new" signal. So, nothing new is allowed post 2016? LOL.

I will try to explain using words with two or fewer syllables as much as possible. If I see this i n DAN's annual report rather than some fluff blog post, then I'll give it the same level of importance.

That list is what DAN has deemed as the top issues regarding dive safety. That is where agencies, not just PADI, should be focusing their efforts. Address those first, and then move onto "doesn't my kit look well put together?"

 

[tursiops]

I will try to explain using words with two or fewer syllables as much as possible. If I see this i n DAN's annual report rather than some fluff blog post, then I'll give it the same level of importance.

That list is what DAN has deemed as the top issues regarding dive safety. That is where agencies, not just PADI, should be focusing their efforts. Address those first, and then move onto "doesn't my kit look well put together?"

No one is complaining about DAN's 2016 report; you don't need to keep defending it.
However, you are not allowing any progress in the following 4 years....if DAN didn't say it in 2016, then it is never worth saying?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

No one is complaining about DAN's 2016 report; you don't need to keep defending it.

I don't see how I am defending it, when I am referencing it.

I must not be speaking in English.

However, you are not allowing any progress in the following 4 years....if DAN didn't say it in 2016, then it is never worth saying?

Who said anything about not allowing progress? It is about priorities.

Yeah, I'm definitely not speaking English.

 

[tursiops]

I don't see how I am defending it, when I am referencing it.

I must not be speaking in English.

Who said anything about not allowing progress? It is about priorities.

Yeah, I'm definitely not speaking English.

Now that you have backed off ever so slightly, I will too.
DAN's report and your focus is on diver safety. I am speaking more generally, about dive execution and communicating during a dive. Although safety is important and definitely a priority, other concerns are also present, such as enjoyment of the dive, sharing the experience with your buddy, and comfort level that all is going well.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Now that you have backed off ever so slightly, I will too.

I didn't think I was LOL.

DAN's report and your focus is on diver safety.

There are a slew of concerns. Dive safety is #1. Why focus on things of far less importance?

I am speaking more generally, about dive execution and communicating during a dive. Although safety is important and definitely a priority, other concerns are also present, such as enjoyment of the dive, sharing the experience with your buddy, and comfort level that all is going well.

Signalling "okay" covers what I put in bold.

I don't see how this signal improves communication. If I have a sick stomach, but I can continue to dive, I can signal, "wait", "problem", "stomach" to let the feeling pass, and when I feel better, I signal "okay" and "finning" (to keep going). If I made the mistake of eating at Taco Bell and feel the consequences of such coming on, I may not signal anything before bolting to the surface and getting out of my dry suit before I destroy it internally. I sure as hεll am not going to be waving my arm in a big circle.

Especially on a night dive. Is waving my light around going to be understood? As compared of lighting up my hand signalling problem and then continuing to light up my hand as I point to my stomach?

Making a redundant sign that doesn't convey additional information from existing well understood (well, not by everyone apparently) is pointless.

 

[Adamastor]

Of course not. If I feel narced, I'd signal that Something is Wrong and then point to my head, and then indicate let's go up shallower.

Exactly, provided you realise you are narcosed at all.
Now imagine a new diver, who never felt narcosis, it's likely he won't "feel well" and signal accordingly.

My dive buddy did two weeks ago.

Then your buddy wasn't properly briefed on what the signal was for.
If I lost a snap hook during a dive, I wouldn't be happy about it, but it wouldn't affect my ability to continue the dive as planned.

I would ask if they want to ascend and end the dive. It is not illness, it is not narcosis, it is not an emergency.

Whether being cold underwater is an emergency or not is debatable, as self-assessment isn't an objective measure.

I did a 70-minute dive with a buddy in 16°C sea water. I was wearing a 5mm semi-dry suit. After about 20 min I felt cold but continued the dive. It wasn't unbearable or anything. Then, during the deco stop, I had uncontrollable shivers. Finished the dive and drank a liter of warm tea on the way back.
Now if I feel cold and it doesn't subside after 10 minutes, I end the dive. Once my buddy tells me he's cold, I ask again every 5 minutes and end the dive after 10 if he's still cold.

Some agencies teach to indicate 3 different levels of "cold feeling", from mild to unbearable. I'm not a big fan of the practice either, as it's still a very relative info.

"Something is Wrong" is for much more than illness or narcosis or cold...for example a leaking hose or a loose fin, or being unsure of the correct navigation.

We'll have to agree to disagree. "Something is Wrong" is literally for anything that is wrong.

 

[tursiops]

"Something is Wrong" is literally for anything that is wrong.

I agree completely. That's my point. It is not just for dive-ending emergencies.

 

[boulderjohn]

So PADI hasn’t revised the OW training in almost three years? Because it is not in their current OW training.

I also downloaded their iOS app. In the list of hand signals, it doesn’t appear.

Three years, no signs of it actually being incorporated. Seems more like they decided to abandon it to me.

Do you have any idea what kind of time, effort, and money it takes to update a course that is translated into dozens of languages and printed in countless manuals around the world? You don't just abandon the materials already in existence when you come up with one item to include in the next revision.

But your zeal in attacking PADI for whatever you can think of is duly noted.