Not Feeling Well? New Hand signal.

[lowwall]

IMO, the objection is simple. The use of the signal does not improve communication. On the contrary, a general statement of "I'm feeling ill" is less useful or precise than the existing standard of signalling "something is wrong" and then pointing at the area in pain/distress.

 

[tursiops]

IMO, the objection is simple. The use of the signal does not improve communication. On the contrary, a general statement of "I'm feeling ill" is less useful or precise than the existing standard of signalling "something is wrong" and then pointing at the area in pain/distress.

The new signal is not meant to replace Something is Wrong. It provides additional information. The only change is instead of pointing to your body, you can say more explicitly I'l ill. Pointing to your body could also mean a joint hurts or I just got stung, or something other than illness.

 

[jseyfert3]

The Bulletin aslos says:
The signal will be incorporated into PADI learning materialsas they are revised.

So PADI hasn’t revised the OW training in almost three years? Because it is not in their current OW training.

I also downloaded their iOS app. In the list of hand signals, it doesn’t appear.

Three years, no signs of it actually being incorporated. Seems more like they decided to abandon it to me.

 

[lowwall]

The new signal is not meant to replace Something is Wrong. It provides additional information. The only change is instead of pointing to your body, you can say more explicitly I'l ill. Pointing to your body could also mean a joint hurts or I just got stung, or something other than illness.

What does "I'm ill?" mean? Headache, nausea, runny nose, stomach cramps, diarrhea, dizziness, fever, cough, wheezing, general weakness, hangover... ?

It adds no actionable information, only additional questions.

Also, this is not the important part of the communication. The important part is what you want the buddy to do. These signals should always be accompanied by an actionable command, something like "ascend", "turn the dive", "stop", "slow down", or "stay close". This is a secondary signal. It's nice to try to fill in the why for the command, but it's not strictly necessary.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

That's what I am trying to understand, what is the objection to the signal and the information?

Because so many around here think they are so much smarter than everyone one else including the agencies.
I have news for them, this new hand signal is going to be used and taught whether they like it or not.
I don’t think the opinion of a handful of blow hard zealots on scubaboard is going to make a fly sh_t bit of difference in the real world.
In fact, the next time I go on a buddy dive with my good friend on a local dive I’m going to tell him about it and demonstrate it since he is not on scubaboard and isn’t involved in any current training with PADI.

 

[BoltSnap]

Because so many around here think they are so much smarter than everyone one else including the agencies.
I have news for them, this new hand signal is going to be used and taught whether they like it or not.
I don’t think the opinion of a handful of blow hard zealots on scubaboard is going to make a fly sh_t bit of difference in the real world.
In fact, the next time I go on a buddy dive with my good friend on a local dive I’m going to tell him about it and demonstrate it since he is not on scubaboard and isn’t involved in any current training with PADI.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[jseyfert3]

I have news for them, this new hand signal is going to be used and taught whether they like it or not.

So PADI hasn’t revised the OW training in almost three years? Because it is not in their current OW training.

I also downloaded their iOS app. In the list of hand signals, it doesn’t appear.

Three years, no signs of it actually being incorporated. Seems more like they decided to abandon it to me.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

When they revise their materials it will probably be there. Things don’t happen instantly.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Need? No, I didn't say that. Useful? Yes, I did say that.
You DO understand of course that just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't make it correct.

Having students learn sign language is also useful. However, see @boulderjohn 's post #149.

Surely we understand the bulk of the market wanting the shortest possible courses. It isn't something that I cater to (my OW course is targeting cold water divers, so I have 8 OW dives instead of 4, but this includes dry suit certification and nitrox. That eliminates 99% of divers for me). Given that courses are focused on this market segment, there is only so much information a person will absorb.

So focus on what is important.

Might have been hard to say in 2016, since the signal was not introduced until 2020.

You have it backwards.

The REAL point is that if you don't want to use the signal, then don't. I prefer --as do others -- to be able to communicate better u/w.

No one has been able to make a case that this is "better."

Of course not. If I feel narced, I'd signal that Something is Wrong and then point to my head, and then indicate let's go up shallower.

yeah, most people are narced don't realize it. Some are in outright denial. I know diving to 180 feet on air was problematic with narcosis. One of my buddies wouldn't signal back "Ok". Instead, his head followed my light on the lake floor like a cat watching a laser pointer. And at the surface, he denied he was narced. At shallow depth, he'd never fail to respond back "okay" with his light.

I knew I was narced as I knew I was at depth. I moved very slowly so that I wouldn't feel it.

My dive buddy did two weeks ago.

There was no reason for your buddy to terminate a dive over a camera issue, unless he's filming for National Geographic.

"Something is Wrong" is for much more than illness or narcosis or cold...for example a leaking hose or a loose fin, or being unsure of the correct navigation.

Wrong. It is or anything. Illness, not feeling it, need help with a cramp, the list is long. If it cannot be resolved (camera issues are an obvious exception) end the dive.

Yes, it is possible to try and make everything black and white, either the OK sign or the thumbs up. But then why do we even need ANY of those other signs?

You serious?

So PADI hasn’t revised the OW training in almost three years? Because it is not in their current OW training.

I also downloaded their iOS app. In the list of hand signals, it doesn’t appear.

Three years, no signs of it actually being incorporated. Seems more like they decided to abandon it to me.

That's actually comical.

Because so many around here think they are so much smarter than everyone one else including the agencies.

It isn't about being smarter than everyone else, including agencies. Remember agencies are a business. They need to focus on what is important (like DAN's top 10 changes in their 2016 report) so we have less of this: Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

My priority isn't revenue. What I propose would actually reduce revenue for most agencies, except those like RAID that require neutral buoyancy and trim in their courses.

I have news for them, this new hand signal is going to be used and taught whether they like it or not.

Bwahahahaha!!!! Yeah, it will be used, but in small numbers. It will likely be abandoned by most, as other divers will never have seen it before or have forgotten it. If they forget "problem", then Lord help them.

I don’t think the opinion of a handful of blow hard zealots on scubaboard is going to make a fly sh_t bit of difference in the real world.

This blow hard zealot has always known that. All of us do. But we are still free to express our opinion. The backlash from an even smaller group of people isn't going to make a sh_t bit of difference in us continuing to express our opinion.

In fact, the next time I go on a buddy dive with my good friend on a local dive I’m going to tell him about it and demonstrate it since he is not on scubaboard and isn’t involved in any current training with PADI.

How nice. No one cares.

When they revise their materials it will probably be there. Things don’t happen instantly.

Yeah, 3 years. Time to sh_t or get off the pot. That isn't instantly. I've written training materials myself. It is exhausting, but agencies have far more resources than I do. This should have taken 6 months max.

 

[BlueTrin]

Actually although I didn’t like this idea at first, the way @tursiops described it kind of make sense. Obviously, should weight the benefit against adding another sign but it feels less silly than what I thought at first …

The workflow, wobbly, feeling ill, point at part causing problem, gives a bit more information. But I was wondering (maybe @tursiops, you’d know this): are there previous cases where this would have saved a life or made probably a difference?