Not Feeling Well? New Hand signal.

[BoltSnap]

I can’t see how new divers should be expected to remember yet another signal.

By repetition and practice. In class, in pool, in open water, everywhere. What you said isn't an execuse.

Second, with my limited experience, if I was sick and wanted to end the dive, I just signal “not okay” then “end the dive”. Or just “end the dive” because even after these years, I remember that “end the dive” is not a request, and if your buddy signals it, you end the dive and accompany your buddy to the surface, no questions asked.

What if there is no need to end the dive, perhaps just move away from the grass area that is making you seasick because of its movement? Giving a little details to your buddy about your issue isn't going to hurt, it may help in the response and how to handle the ascent.

At the end, you don't like the sign, don't use it.

 

[jseyfert3]

By repetition and practice. In class, in pool, in open water, everywhere. What you said isn't an execuse.

There’s this great concept I learned about in Cautionary Tales by Tim Hartford. This is the concept of “Work as Written” vs “Work as Performed.” Work as written will never completely match work as performed, but the ideal is to make it as close as possible.

Often, when people try to make work as performed match work as written, they focus only on the work as performed. But it’s very important to consider that it may be most appropriate to change the work as written to better match the work as performed.

The issue I see is there are already 25 signals listed. These do not all have the same level of importance. PADI only requires demonstration of like 6 of them? What I’m trying to say is if 6 are really important, and the rest not so much, the longer the list of “not that important” ones, the more they WILL be ignored by students. This isn’t a question of if they should or should not be ignored. If you have lots of information, and it’s not important, and not treated as such, it simply will not be retained.

In summary, PADI doesn’t train all 25 current hand signals, or have students practice all of them. Don’t add new things that overlap with existing things, when you currently don’t require all of those things to be learned.

What if there is no need to end the dive, perhaps just move away from the grass area that is making you seasick because of its movement? Giving a little details to your buddy about your issue isn't going to hurt, it may help in the response and how to handle the ascent.

Not okay - point at grass - buddy up - swim - point away from grass.

At the end, you don't like the sign, don't use it.

I probably won’t, but but again, if something isn’t necessary, it probably shouldn’t be trained. The more that’s trained that’s not needed, the more that dilutes training for things that ARE needed.

 

[Adamastor]

The more that’s trained that’s not needed, the more that dilutes training for things that ARE needed.

Amen!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The more that’s trained that’s not needed, the more that dilutes training for things that ARE needed.

Interference theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's why teaching the core of what is important, and not extra stuff that makes students tune out. Otherwise you wind up with 10 hour courses for content that should be max 2 hours for students having difficulty getting basic concepts. The speed in which students absorb material can vary dramatically.

I think teaching skills at a higher level is a priority. Such as DSMB deployment while trim and neutrally buoyant. It is a red flag when I receive a DM from an instructor with decades of experience asking me for help. That skill in particular brings task loading to buoyancy control and trim, which should be a minimum for earning open water certification.

While I wrote a dive planning document to address shortcomings in agency materials, in no way shape or form do I expect students to memorize it. They only are to walk through it in creating their own dive plan. It is a confidence builder, so that they can go back to it if they are diving a new site. Too many newly certified students are dependent on experienced divers after their course is finished. This document is being used by a number of instructors in my area as well as other places in the world (where they create an addendum for their local area, as my document is targeted to the Puget Sound).

I am fortunate that I have unlimited confined water and open water time. I just focus on what is important, not silly things and I don't bloviate.

 

[BoltSnap]

There’s this great concept I learned about in Cautionary Tales by Tim Hartford. This is the concept of “Work as Written” vs “Work as Performed.” Work as written will never completely match work as performed, but the ideal is to make it as close as possible.

Often, when people try to make work as performed match work as written, they focus only on the work as performed. But it’s very important to consider that it may be most appropriate to change the work as written to better match the work as performed.

The issue I see is there are already 25 signals listed. These do not all have the same level of importance. PADI only requires demonstration of like 6 of them? What I’m trying to say is if 6 are really important, and the rest not so much, the longer the list of “not that important” ones, the more they WILL be ignored by students. This isn’t a question of if they should or should not be ignored. If you have lots of information, and it’s not important, and not treated as such, it simply will not be retained.

In summary, PADI doesn’t train all 25 current hand signals, or have students practice all of them. Don’t add new things that overlap with existing things, when you currently don’t require all of those things to be learned.


Not okay - point at grass - buddy up - swim - point away from grass.


I probably won’t, but but again, if something isn’t necessary, it probably shouldn’t be trained. The more that’s trained that’s not needed, the more that dilutes training for things that ARE needed.

I am not a PADI instructor and I don't speak for PADI. I am a NAUI instructor and I teach all information/knowledge/skills that are necessary for the diver to be a "safe" and competent diver at the level they are certified to in the respective course. If I teach to the level of "most important" only, then I will only teach; breathe in/breathe out, don't hold your breath, don't go up fast than XXX/minute and follow your computer. the course will be 1 hour at the most in class and confined water the same. But in reality this isn't what I do or my fellow NAUI instructor do at all. I don't water down the instructions to just the very basic skills and stop there. My course isn't a 2 hour or a 2 day program like some others instructor in other agencies do. Not even close.

In regards to signals, hand signals in this case, I teach my students several hand signals starting with the easy to remember with higher priority but as the course progresses, more signals are introduced during the course. The students get to practice ALL signals many, many times. In each new session, pool/classroom, I review what they learned in prior sessions and add to them new skills. My students know how to give signals for numbers (to denote pressure, depth, etc.) and all other what I consider essential signals a recreational diver must know. They practice these signals over and over in classroom, pool and eventually use them in openwater. This signal from DAN/PADI is a good signal that I am going to integrate into my programs.

For instructors that spend only few hours in class and pool with their students, what I do with my students may not work for them and thus they have to cut down on the knowledge and skills they teach to their students but that's their choice and issue. I am not concerned with what others accept in lower quality and lower level of competency in their training programs.

 

[jseyfert3]

I will learn and practice with my GF regularly the important ones (not okay, air, etc).

For details, I’m going to have a dive slate. Seems like that would be way faster and easier if you need to communicate something complicated.

 

[jseyfert3]

Also, after I posted the above, I turned to my GF and said “I got involved in this discussion on a new PADI hand signal.”

“What’s it for?” she asked.

“I’m feeling ill.”

Immediately she replied “but don’t they already have ‘not okay’?”

I cracked up laughing. And that, right there, is why the new signal isn’t necessary. Remember, this is someone training, who hasn’t dove yet, and already knows how to use the existing signal to indicate what is wrong.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

For details, I’m going to have a dive slate. Seems like that would be way faster and easier if you need to communicate something complicated.

Get wetnotes, as you may want to save some things for later. It doesn't take much more space than a slate.

 

[boulderjohn]

If I teach to the level of "most important" only, then I will only teach; breathe in/breathe out, don't hold your breath, don't go up fast than XXX/minute and follow your computer.

Curriculum design theory says to categorize all learning and design curriculum accordingly.

1. Essential Learning should be the primary focus. These are the concepts that a student absolutely must know.
2. Things that are good to know should receive secondary focus. You would expect all students to leave the class knowing this, but if they forget something, it won't be critical.
3. Things that are nice to know receive the least emphasis.
4. Things students don't really need to know should get little emphasis or even be eliminated totally because time and effort learning these things interferes with the learning of category 1 and 2 items.

Example: While leaving a dive shop in Mexico, I watched as an instructor in a beginning cave class delivered a lecture on the internal mechanics of the isolation manifold to students who had been in class for nearly 8 hours that day. That useless time was interfering with their ability to understand and remember whatever they had learned earlier that would keep them alive in a cave.

 

[ChrisDee]

The vast majority of all of you that have responded to this, when not name calling and being difficult, are clearly guilty of this:


The issue is over the last 3/4 years worldwide we have had at least 15 documentable incidents resulting in a fatality ,......with assistance that never came,....less than 10 feet away. You can look up the particulars yorselves. I have clearly gotten the message that if you don't get the "prrof" of this, it dosent exsist,...but that wont change the fact of those that are no longer with us.