Not Feeling Well? New Hand signal.

[jseyfert3]

The vast majority of all of you that have responded to this, when not name calling and being difficult, are clearly guilty of this:


The issue is over the last 3/4 years worldwide we have had at least 15 documentable incidents resulting in a fatality ,......with assistance that never came,....less than 10 feet away. You can look up the particulars yorselves. I have clearly gotten the message that if you don't get the "prrof" of this, it dosent exsist,...but that wont change the fact of those that are no longer with us.

Good video...but I'm not sure how this video relates to the discussion at hand. If I understood it correctly, the summary of the video was "we need to focus on not rushing divers through and making sure they are competent."

How does that relate to PADI, an agency that has a reputation for pushing people through training as fast as possible, releasing a new hand sign, that many people argue is overlapping with an existing hand sign?

 

[jseyfert3]

ALSO, I just realized something important. Despite the "DAN Dispatch" having a date of March 18th, 2023, I noted the picture says "Courtesy PADI ©2021, Used with Permission."

2021? That's not new! And the video linked was posted in August of 2020, almost three years ago! Interesting...

Why is this relevant? Because "Feeling Ill" is not listed on PADI's hand signals page. It wasn't in my GF's PADI OW e-learning, which I know because I've been doing it with her to refresh my own memory before diving again. In short, this isn't new at all, and the agency that used it appears to have decided not to adopt it into their own training. I wonder why...

 

[tursiops]

The new hand signal was introduced in 3Q2020. It was NOT designed to be used instead of "Something is Wrong." In fact, the Training Bulletin introduction to the signal says:

Example use: Diver signals “Something is wrong,” followed by “I don’t feel well,”​

signal, and then “Go up/end dive.”​

It was designed to give more information than just Something is Wrong.
The Bulletin aslos says:

The signal will be incorporated into PADI learning materials​

as they are revised.​

So, what is the problem? Is more information a bad idea?

 

[BoltSnap]

So, what is the problem? Is more information a bad idea?

That's what I am trying to understand, what is the objection to the signal and the information?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

So, what is the problem? Is more information a bad idea?

See @boulderjohn 's post #149.

If people cannot understand why people are against this new sign after all this discussion, Lord help them as they'll never get it even if you beat them over the head with a cinderblock. There's just no point when simple ideas cannot be grasped.

 

[tursiops]

I guess I think you're missing the point, perhaps in your zeal to bash PADI.

By your logic, the only signal we need is thumbs up....end the dive, go to the surface, no other explanation needed. In fact, I'm sure you agree that is silly.
I've read the objections; most of them are without merit. Most object to being asked to learn a simple hand sign so as to communicate better underwater, and/or somehow think that the new hand sign replaces the old one, Something is Wrong. It does not, it is supplementary, it is more info. If a diver u/w signals me something is wrong, it is fair to ask What? My response depends on what is wrong....did the battery in their camera die? Are they cold? Are they low on gas? What? Perhaps we should not have the "I'm cold" signal either, too much information?

Divers need to communicate. Single hand signals may not be enough info. Several can be strung together to make a sentence, as in PADI's example I gave above. Something is wrong, followed by point to the equipment, or to your ear, then signal Up if needed....but maybe you just need to signal Slow Down or Stop.

There is an amazing amount of angst in this thread about a simple hand-sgnal that is helpful, is not really new, and is not essential if people prefer not to use it.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I guess I think you're missing the point, perhaps in your zeal to bash PADI.

By your logic, the only signal we need is thumbs up....end the dive, go to the surface, no other explanation needed. In fact, I'm sure you agree that is silly.
I've read the objections; most of them are without merit. Most object to being asked to learn a simple hand sign so as to communicate better underwater, and/or somehow think that the new hand sign replaces the old one, Something is Wrong. It does not, it is supplementary, it is more info. If a diver u/w signals me something is wrong, it is fair to ask What? My response depends on what is wrong....did the battery in their camera die? Are they cold? Are they low on gas? What? Perhaps we should not have the "I'm cold" signal either, too much information?

Divers need to communicate. Single hand signals may not be enough info. Several can be strung together to make a sentence, as in PADI's example I gave above. Something is wrong, followed by point to the equipment, or to your ear, then signal Up if needed....but maybe you just need to signal Slow Down or Stop.

There is an amazing amount of angst in this thread about a simple hand-sgnal that is helpful, is not really new, and is not essential if people prefer not to use it.

It is comical that anything less than excessive adulation of PADI is seen as bashing.

You claim that you need an extra signal, but the rest of us disagree. If the consensus was support of this signal, you'd have a case. But there isn't so you don't.

This isn't PADI specific, but I'd prefer all agencies focus on fundamentals so that the course of the same name wouldn't be necessary. It was created purely out of necessity.

As John pointed out in post #149, there is a priority of information. This one doesn't make the cut. In addition, in the 2016 DAN report of ten changes they'd like to see, they did not include "signal to indicate I'm not feeling well" as a priority.

The end.

 

[tursiops]

You claim that you need an extra signal, but the rest of us disagree.

Need? No, I didn't say that. Useful? Yes, I did say that.
You DO understand of course that just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't make it correct.

In addition, in the 2016 DAN report of ten changes they'd like to see, they did not include "signal to indicate I'm not feeling well" as a priority.

Might have been hard to say in 2016, since the signal was not introduced until 2020.

The REAL point is that if you don't want to use the signal, then don't. I prefer --as do others -- to be able to communicate better u/w.

 

[Adamastor]

You DO understand of course that just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't make it correct.

Precisely! Just because PADI comes up with something, it doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

Divers need to communicate. Single hand signals may not be enough info.

That's where we can't agree. Divers don't need hand signals to discuss a doctorate thesis on statistical mechanics. Communication underwater must be kept to a minimum, so that you only convey essential info. Just as you wouldn't use Channel 16 VHF to debrief your dive with another boat.

What do you expect to happen after you signal that you don't feel well? Do you expect treatment underwater or ascending to the surface?
Would you signal that you don't feel well when you're getting narcosed?

My response depends on what is wrong....did the battery in their camera die? Are they cold? Are they low on gas? What? Perhaps we should not have the "I'm cold" signal either, too much information?

This is disingenuous. Who would signal "something is wrong" for a dead battery in an non-nessential equipment? Maybe actually training the divers to assess what warrants the "smth is wrong" signal should be encouraged?
Out of curiosity, what is your reaction to the "I'm cold" signal?

The REAL point is that if you don't want to use the signal, then don't. I prefer --as do others -- to be able to communicate better u/w.

The communication would only be better if the signal allowed you to produce a reaction that you wouldn't get otherwise through other signals. This is not the case here, quite the opposite : "I'm cold", "I'm narcosed", "I'm out of breath" could all fall in the "I don't feel well" category, in particular for inexperienced divers.

Creating generic and redundant signals does not improve communication.

 

[tursiops]

Divers don't need hand signals to discuss a doctorate thesis on statistical mechanics.

I'd be happy to discuss that with you on the surface, but why do you even bring it up for diving?

Would you signal that you don't feel well when you're getting narcosed?

Of course not. If I feel narced, I'd signal that Something is Wrong and then point to my head, and then indicate let's go up shallower.

Who would signal "something is wrong" for a dead battery in an non-nessential equipment?

My dive buddy did two weeks ago.

Out of curiosity, what is your reaction to the "I'm cold" signal?

I would ask if they want to ascend and end the dive. It is not illness, it is not narcosis, it is not an emergency.

"I'm cold", "I'm narcosed", "I'm out of breath" could all fall in the "I don't feel well" category, in particular for inexperienced divers.

Maybe this is the misunderstanding; the I Don't Feel Well is for illness, not for narcosis or cold or out of breath...those have other hand signals.

"Something is Wrong" is for much more than illness or narcosis or cold...for example a leaking hose or a loose fin, or being unsure of the correct navigation.

Yes, it is possible to try and make everything black and white, either the OK sign or the thumbs up. But then why do we even need ANY of those other signs?