Non-certified diver fatality - Arkansas

[Ken Kurtis]

Do you have anything to offer that would verify that "industry standard" claim?

You've GOT to be kidding me. Do I need to prove the Law of Gravity to you as well if you're not familair with it?

From the PADI Retail Association Membership Standards, all members must:
(Page 8, point 16 under equipment dsales & service) "Agree to sell, rent or provide compressed air for scuba purposes only to certified divers and student divers in training under a professional scuba instructor, unless prohibited by local law."
(Page 8, point 17 regarding recreational scuba diving activities) "Require proof of recreational scuba certification by all divers participating in in noninstructional recreational scuba dives."

Other agency retailer associations have similar language.

Sorry for the snarkiness but surely you jest. (And yes, I'll call you Shirley.)

As to the court cases . . .

I have personal knowledge of one from the late 90s or early 2000s where a store in the midwest rented gear to an uncertified diver, never asked for proof of certification, diver went and dove by himself and died, family sued, case was settled out of court for a fairly sizeable sum (probably just under seven figures).

I ask again: What's the upside of taking this risk?

- Ken

 

[vincent54]

What keeps someone from buying gear from ebay or craigslist, or from the scuba board classified? Are we now all liable and required to check c cards? At some point people need to be responsible for their own actions. The deceased thought it was a good idea and unfortunately ended badly. The friend will live with this bad decision till times end.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

How does the possession of a c-card relate to a court case that seems to have been decided based on a defective product?

Awap, you miss the point so let me beat you over the head with it:

The point was that juries award large amounts of monies to families when they think they've been wronged (scuba or otherwise). Selling or renting people gear, or filling tanks with compressed air, and not confirming that they're certified to use these things, is inviting trouble and if trouble finds you, it may come in the form of a large jury award.

Seriously, what part of this are you having trouble understanding?

- Ken

---------- Post added August 6th, 2013 at 06:45 PM ----------

What keeps someone from buying gear from ebay or craigslist, or from the scuba board classified?

Nothing.

Are we now all liable and required to check c cards?

You might be if you're selling someone gear. Again, what's the downside of checking?

At some point people need to be responsible for their own actions.

I agree totally. By the same token, relatives of the deceased and juries are frequently looking for someone to blame. And since everyone "knows" how dangerous diving is, obviously the person who sold them this life-threatening gear should have known better.

Don't forget that the plaintiffs lawyers will do their best to excuse every single certified diver from the jury. They don't want anyone with actual knowledge on the jury. Instead, they'd rather have uncertified people who have have an inherent fear or mistrust of diving. THOSE are the people in whose hands your fate will be.

- Ken

 

[redacted]

You've GOT to be kidding me. Do I need to prove the Law of Gravity to you as well if you're not familair with it?

From the PADI Retail Association Membership Standards, all members must:
(Page 8, point 16 under equipment dsales & service) "Agree to sell, rent or provide compressed air for scuba purposes only to certified divers and student divers in training under a professional scuba instructor, unless prohibited by local law."
(Page 8, point 17 regarding recreational scuba diving activities) "Require proof of recreational scuba certification by all divers participating in in noninstructional recreational scuba dives."

Other agency retailer associations have similar language.

Sorry for the snarkiness but surely you jest. (And yes, I'll call you Shirley.)

As to the court cases . . .

I have personal knowledge of one from the late 90s or early 2000s where a store in the midwest rented gear to an uncertified diver, never asked for proof of certification, diver went and dove by himself and died, family sued, case was settled out of court for a fairly sizeable sum (probably just under seven figures).

I ask again: What's the upside of taking this risk?

- Ken

I see restrictions on the sale of scuba gas and on sponsored dive participation. I don't doubt those are "industry standard".

I do not see any restrictions on the sale of gear (or compressed air for paintball use).

Have you got anything else?

Shirley

---------- Post added August 6th, 2013 at 08:53 PM ----------

Awap, you miss the point so let me beat you over the head with it:

The point was that juries award large amounts of monies to families when they think they've been wronged (scuba or otherwise). Selling or renting people gear, or filling tanks with compressed air, and not confirming that they're certified to use these things, is inviting trouble and if trouble finds you, it may come in the form of a large jury award.

Seriously, what part of this are you having trouble understanding?

- Ken

With your op you can do what you want, pretty much, including sending the uncertified parent of a newly certified diver to your retail gear competitor for that $3k bag of gear.

What I don't understand is why you would want to deceive others with your BS "industry standard" claim.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

What I don't understand is why you would want to deceive others with your BS "industry standard" claim.

Thanks for taking it down a notch Shirley. Class act. I don't think I have the ability to put this in language that will resonate with you so I'm going to stop trying.

ADDED THOUGHT - Just FTR, many delaership agreements (contracts between a store and a given mfg) contain clauses that specify you will only sell life-support gear (BCs, regs, computers, tanks) to certified divers or those in training. I don't have any of those at my disposal right now so while you may consider it to be more of my BS, perhaps more level heads will accept that there's some truth to this.

SECOND ADDED THOUGHT - I just noticed, Shirley, the little quote at the bottom of your posts. Interesting choice.

- Ken

 

[vincent54]

Awap, you miss the point so let me beat you over the head with it:

The point was that juries award large amounts of monies to families when they think they've been wronged (scuba or otherwise). Selling or renting people gear, or filling tanks with compressed air, and not confirming that they're certified to use these things, is inviting trouble and if trouble finds you, it may come in the form of a large jury award.

Seriously, what part of this are you having trouble understanding?

- Ken

---------- Post added August 6th, 2013 at 06:45 PM ----------



Nothing.



You might be if you're selling someone gear. Again, what's the downside of checking?



I agree totally. By the same token, relatives of the deceased and juries are frequently looking for someone to blame. And since everyone "knows" how dangerous diving is, obviously the person who sold them this life-threatening gear should have known better.

Don't forget that the plaintiffs lawyers will do their best to excuse every single certified diver from the jury. They don't want anyone with actual knowledge on the jury. Instead, they'd rather have uncertified people who have have an inherent fear or mistrust of diving. THOSE are the people in whose hands your fate will be.

- Ken

Thanks for the response. I may just bin the old equipment. Cheers

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I realize that many people in this thread are not necessarily what are loosely termed "professional-level" divers (instructors, DMs, etc.). Those of us who do this for a living (shop owners, boat owners, instructors, DMs, etc.) assume that when something goes horribly wrong, there will be an attempt to point the finger at us. Whether there's any actual blame or not, why give the plaintiffs ANY ammunition ("They never even asked for a certification card") that could be used to paint you in a less-than-favorable light?

And I ask again (and this is really a serious question on my part), what's the big deal about being asked to show your certification card prior to buying or renting gear, getting air, or if you're showing up at a resort or going on a boat, especially if it's a business you've never dealt with before and they have no prior knowledge of whether you're certified or not? I simply can't find any logic in not asking for a card nor in being reluctant to show one when asked. Can anyone (even Shirley) help me out?????

- Ken

 

[redacted]

Thanks for taking it down a notch Shirley. Class act. I don't think I have the ability to put this in language that will resonate with you so I'm going to stop trying.

ADDED THOUGHT - Just FTR, many delaership agreements (contracts between a store and a given mfg) contain clauses that specify you will only sell life-support gear (BCs, regs, computers, tanks) to certified divers or those in training. I don't have any of those at my disposal right now so while you may consider it to be more of my BS, perhaps more level heads will accept that there's some truth to this.

SECOND ADDED THOUGHT - I just noticed, Shirley, the little quote at the bottom of your posts. Interesting choice.

- Ken

I have asked quite a few dealers about their dealer agreements and NONE have indicated any such restrictions.

I would hope your "expert testimony" is clearer and less evasive than what you are providing here related to "industry standards" and retail gear sales.

 

[kelemvor]

I've bought gear from at least 9 different stores now. Never been asked for a card to buy gear. Tank fills? I've been asked every time (except at shops where they know me).

Personally I don't think it should be necessary to ask for a card. The fact is, we're all adults. You don't need a card to buy a gun, a car, a knife, gasoline, or a million other things that can kill you if used improperly.

In any event, a sad day for this person's family. I'm very sorry for their loss.

 

[FM1520]

I don't doubt what Ken is saying but in my experience I have never been asked for a C-card to buy gear. Including both small LDSs and the big box stores like Sport Chalet. There must be something to this, for a store to be so adamant about seeing a c-card for an air fill or rental but buying the same equipment no C-card required. This indicates to me there is a difference in risk.

I don't know what the down side is in asking for a c-card when selling gear but there much be one because a lot of dive shops don't require one to buy gear.