Non-certified diver fatality - Arkansas

[Crass3000]

This thread has shifted a little from the fatality..... I can't believe anyone would take a friend diving without certification. Even if I had gear to borrow them. I might offer to pay for half their class as I have before but there is no way I would take an untrained person diving no matter how shallow, clear, etc the water is. I would be surprised if the guy who was certified doesn't end up with a big lawsuit. I would expect one.

 

[drrich2]

I suspect part of the debate in the thread hinges on the resentment many have towards our litigious nanny state, and the onerous burden of pressure to obey 'unwritten non-laws' in order to 'look good' because some civil case may rob you blind when you've done no wrong, even if capitulating to such in the name of managing liability is actually a good idea.

Ken asked a question that's worth taking a look at:

And I ask again (and this is really a serious question on my part), what's the big deal about being asked to show your certification card prior to buying or renting gear, getting air, or if you're showing up at a resort or going on a boat, especially if it's a business you've never dealt with before and they have no prior knowledge of whether you're certified or not? I simply can't find any logic in not asking for a card nor in being reluctant to show one when asked. Can anyone (even Shirley) help me out?????

I'm not arguing for or against. There is a bit more to it. Sadly in the regulation-strangled world that we call modern day American, there's the mentality that:

1.) If it's not documented, it didn't happen, and...

2.) An institutional policy can create the appearance of a 'duty of care' even if the policy in question was not mandated by any law, and if the business in question violates its own policy, then it may be more apt to be construed as negligent.

In other words, a certified diver walks into a dive shop that requires cert. presentation to buy gear (and thus may miss out on sales to people who wanted to buy gifts for divers, but aren't certified themselves). He buys or rents some gear, & loans it to an uncertified friend. They dive together & the friend dies. The certified diver, freaking out and looking to spread the liability around by making somebody else the fall guy, denies that he was asked to show certification himself, and may claim he mentioned that the gear was for a friend and that he wasn't asked about the friend's certification.

So, a shop that has a policy that it checks cert.s before renting or selling gear may find itself needing to document that. Depending on your office setup, this might mean photocopies of cert. cards, a computer database (what happens when your computer crashes?), possibly equipment redundancy, etc...

My point is that while you can demand customers demonstrate cert. status (while online vendors obviously don't), the business may then feel compelled to retain records of it, and that can be a hassle.

Richard.

 

[ScubaSteve]

While requiring proof of certification may be an "Industry Standard", it is quite obviously not the norm in real life. I respect Ken's position and would gladly show my card if I had it with me. BUT, because Ken is clearly the minority, I only take my Ccard when filling tanks or booking dives. So I would have nothing good to say if I was refused my purchase of a replacement hose or reg while doing shore dives. Especially if it cost me further dives. But, it is the shop's right to decide to whom and under what conditions they will sell to someone under. They will be able to sleep that night with a clear conscience knowing they did what they believe to be right.

To answer Ken's question: to a shop, the possible downsides to requiring certification to purchase: loss of sales to shops that do not turn away business, bad PR and word of mouth by those who were turned away. Both of those could be "worth it" to the shop.......just answering the question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.......figure it out

 

[Wookie]

I carry a c-card in my wallet. It is my nitrox instructor card, figuring that there aren't many dives I can't do with it. I don't carry it to prove anything to anyone, but if my wife forgets her card, she can dive under instruction with me. If anyone asks for it for any reason, I have it.

No, Ken, there is really no reason not to request or require a c-card. Your shop, your requirements.

 

[tanksforthememories]

I was and am still of the mind that a reg and tank are useless without a fill. It makes sense to me that providing proof of certification provides the fill station proof that the purchaser understands the dangers involved. This understanding of the risks allows for the assumption of the risks by the purchaser, if the person does not understand that there are risks IE does not have a certification card, and the shop does not even ask I can see how it could be argued that the shop was negligent. Sort of like a gun shop handing a child who has never been taught safe gun handling protocols a loaded gun... I personally think a situation where a 33 year old,presumably competent adult, decides to dive without formalized training shows a flagrant disregard for personal safety. Further, as a certified diver who was made aware of the risks of diving during their certification process, I would think the friend would have a hard time defending the decision to enable the non certified diver.

In respect to the discussion of dive shops requiring c-cards (likely should be a separate thread?)

I would offer as an analogy, I have never been asked for my drivers license when filling my car with gas. I have also never heard of a gas station being sued for selling gasoline to a person driving without a license who is injured or killed while driving. I whole heatedly agree with Ken that it makes sense in today's world to require a certification card to purchase,rent or fill scuba gear. But in answer to his question of what the possible down side could be I would point out that it may have helped to create a situation where plaintiffs seem justified now to sue shops or individuals who do not ask for c-cards. Why the double standard? I am sure more people die due to drivers who are barred from driving or who do not hold a valid drivers license getting their fuel tanks filled than uncertified divers getting their scuba tanks filled. Again, this is the world we live in so right or wrong it is the one we have to protect ourselves from and thus I would applaud Ken for his sage advice of cover your ass. Wishing it was different won't, by itself, make it so.

 

[northw00d]

I stumbled upon this thread when I was looking for the obituary for my coworker Phillip Schwab.. I maybe able to enlighten you a little. I work(ed) with Phil and his brother. They were on vacation. And it's my understanding he was spear fishing. Phil always loved to fish. No one around here even cares how he got the gear. We are focused on the tragedy of losing a son, father, brother, and friend. I don't personally think this was caused by him being untrained. He knew how to tell if his tank was running low. We are trained to use them at work. He wouldn't have dove that deep alone either. There is only one person who knows what happened and he isn't around to explain.. thats just my 2 cents.

 

[AfterDark]

I stumbled upon this thread when I was looking for the obituary for my coworker Phillip Schwab.. I maybe able to enlighten you a little. I work(ed) with Phil and his brother. They were on vacation. And it's my understanding he was spear fishing. Phil always loved to fish. No one around here even cares how he got the gear. We are focused on the tragedy of losing a son, father, brother, and friend. I don't personally think this was caused by him being untrained. He knew how to tell if his tank was running low. We are trained to use them at work. He wouldn't have dove that deep alone either. There is only one person who knows what happened and he isn't around to explain.. thats just my 2 cents.

Sorry for the loss of your friend. Thank you for your input. As divers we are always concerned when a non-certified diver dies while diving and speculate how they got the gear and got themselves into such a tragic situation when there are some many opportunities to learn. Again sorry and thanks.

 

[mizzie]

Certified or not, it's always tragic to hear of someone passing away while diving. My sympathies to the family and friends.

I do have to say, I am quite surprised at the number of people who say they've never been carded for an air fill. I had been told that was standard. I'm a brand new diver (just finished OW last week, don't even have my card yet), so I haven't run into that yet.

 

[DandyDon]

I stumbled upon this thread when I was looking for the obituary for my coworker Phillip Schwab.. I maybe able to enlighten you a little. I work(ed) with Phil and his brother. They were on vacation. And it's my understanding he was spear fishing. Phil always loved to fish. No one around here even cares how he got the gear. We are focused on the tragedy of losing a son, father, brother, and friend. I don't personally think this was caused by him being untrained. He knew how to tell if his tank was running low. We are trained to use them at work. He wouldn't have dove that deep alone either. There is only one person who knows what happened and he isn't around to explain.. thats just my 2 cents.

Hello. You may not like the discussion still as condolences and such are actually prohibited in this forum (section) to avoid sorrows interfering with examinations of accidents - we have a Passings forum for such, but if you'd like to offer any information beyond what we got from the news - that would be appreciated greatly.

Can you tell us about "We are trained to use them at work"...?

Scuba is a potentially dangerous sport, and lakes have their hazards. It does sound like both divers ran out of air, and your co-worker was not certified, but whatever you can share.

 

[masizemore]

Certified or not, it's always tragic to hear of someone passing away while diving. My sympathies to the family and friends.

I do have to say, I am quite surprised at the number of people who say they've never been carded for an air fill. I had been told that was standard. I'm a brand new diver (just finished OW last week, don't even have my card yet), so I haven't run into that yet.

I am surprised too. Every shop I have had a fill in wanted to see them, every boat we have been on the same.