Non-certified diver fatality - Arkansas

[Landlocked123]

I have never run a dive shop so I can't attest to the impact to business. What i do know is that as a paying customer I do not see someone asking me for my C card as a turn off. In fact it actually reinforces my belief that i am doing business witha more reputable, saftey focused OP. Your argument of self imposed liability makes marginal sense. So are you saying we should not have safety checks because of the implied risk that we may forget to do one someday? Also, in litigation the oveall behaviour of an establishment is taken into consideration. Even if one were to forget to ask that one time the fact they it is routinely done still can sway a jury. Its consistent, blatant, and repetitive disregard for regulations that really gets you in trouble.
Again just my 2 cents

 

[ScubaSteve]

Bottom line is, if you're in the habit of asking for more than is required industry wide, you will always be held to that higher standard. If you cannot produce a record of every instance that you enforced your higher standard, you provide evidence against yourself that you don't always enforce your own standards, and you become liable for anybody who was harmed by your failure to comply with your own high standards.

In effect, you are incurring self-imposed liability, plus documentation burden (costs), that your competitors do not have. It's a narrow margin business as it is. Now you want to increase your burden beyond that deemed reasonable by the industry? How long would you expect that business model to work?

I am no lawyer but this does not sound like it would be reality......either way it matters not for my point. There is an easy solution here. Set YOUR (a dive shop/charter) standard and stick by it to the end. If you never break your rules, then you should always be able to produce the record. Making exceptions is where people trip up. They break their routine and that throws them off their game and they forget to ask for things.

 

[Sevenrider860]

I dive at the local quarry. Almost every Saturday. Every time I dive I fill out a waiver and show my card. The gentleman who runs the quarry OP asks for it and I am happy to show it. Bottom line i think the message from Ken is clear. Unless you have been in a courtroom on the stand with your integrity being questioned and your future at stake, or watched others in that predicament, you would not undestand what it's like. Do not underestimate what a "good" lawyer with enoguth monetary incentive can do in court. If I owned a dive shop or boat I would ask for cert in all instances. Better to lose some customers then endanger the whole business/operation and someone's life in the process. Just me 2 cents.
G

Compare this to a quarry that checks your C-Card (actually may make a copy of it) and has you complete a waiver that is good for the calendar year. Now this quarry OP is pretty good on the customer end of things and recognizes the folks that visit every weekend. This quarry OP knows you, knows he has a waiver and has proof of your certification on file, so he does not make you complete the process each time you visit. Is he any less "protected" in a courtroom than your quarry OP that has you show your card and complete a waiver every time you visit? I think not.

In the end it is their business and their rules. But I also have a choice. If I have a choice between two similar operators delivering two similar experiences and one has me complete a waiver and show my C-Card every time I get on the boat versus the one that copies my C-Card and has me complete a waiver that is good for the calendar year...I am picking the one that displays the better "customer service" and minimizes my paperwork each visit. That operator who chose to place less burden on me (no matter how minor) to ensure I have a great experience is no less protected if an accident happens, as she has the proof of certification and the waiver on file.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Compare this to a quarry that checks your C-Card (actually may make a copy of it) and has you complete a waiver that is good for the calendar year. Now this quarry OP is pretty good on the customer end of things and recognizes the folks that visit every weekend. This quarry OP knows you, knows he has a waiver and has proof of your certification on file, so he does not make you complete the process each time you visit. Is he any less "protected" in a courtroom than your quarry OP that has you show your card and complete a waiver every time you visit? I think not.

In the end it is their business and their rules. But I also have a choice. If I have a choice between two similar operators delivering two similar experiences and one has me complete a waiver and show my C-Card every time I get on the boat versus the one that copies my C-Card and has me complete a waiver that is good for the calendar year...I am picking the one that displays the better "customer service" and minimizes my paperwork each visit. That operator who chose to place less burden on me (no matter how minor) to ensure I have a great experience is no less protected if an accident happens, as she has the proof of certification and the waiver on file.

I have one such quarry (calling it a quarry is a stretch - a dirty puddle is more like it) close to me. I did a dive there 2 weeks ago. I have not filled in a form in 2 years.....simply was not asked. My dive buddy was asked....he was honest and filled one out. I know people that they ask "Have you completed your waiver this year?" and the people have at times lied and said Yes. They were waived through. Are the nice, reasonable and understanding lawyers of the world going to care that the gate attendant claims that they were told by the deceased that they had in fact filled in a waiver when they had not? If you are going to do it, do it right. Otherwise you are just asking for trouble.

---------- Post added August 9th, 2013 at 09:25 AM ----------

If they were to actually start to enforce the card/waiver rules, I would simply ask for a spare waiver, copy it, fill them all in over drinks one night and simply fill the dates in when I am actually going to dive (i.e. fill it in at the gate). Simple way of living by their rules and minimizing the personal impact.

 

[Abdullah]

I have never run a dive shop so I can't attest to the impact to business. What i do know is that as a paying customer I do not see someone asking me for my C card as a turn off. In fact it actually reinforces my belief that i am doing business witha more reputable, saftey focused OP. Your argument of self imposed liability makes marginal sense. So are you saying we should not have safety checks because of the implied risk that we may forget to do one someday? Also, in litigation the oveall behaviour of an establishment is taken into consideration. Even if one were to forget to ask that one time the fact they it is routinely done still can sway a jury. Its consistent, blatant, and repetitive disregard for regulations that really gets you in trouble.
Again just my 2 cents

The point is that you're not decreasing your liability by self-policing the scuba equipment sales market. A lawyer will turn your unique standards against you quicker than they can turn an industry-wide best practice against you. That's why businesses stick with industry best practices - there's protection in the herd.

Implying a LDS is somehow disreputable or unsafe for not requiring a c-card for a purchase is misguided. Using your logic, the only way a shop would be safe is to require a skills test before selling any equipment.

 

[drrich2]

While it does not invalidate the view that cert. checking might reduce risk in some instances, the societal hypocrisy is galling. I sit here thinking about how I could walk into a Lowes or Home Depot & buy dangerous power tools (e.g.: a chain saw or a number of types of saws), or go buy a crossbow or some guns, without having to show I'm certified as trained in their use.

Richard.

 

[OkByMe]

As to getting access to equipment, facility and support for any activity... What difference does it make? I buy all the SCUBA equipment I can pay for without interference from the Nannies. I also Rock climb and same goes for that gear. I also Snow and water ski, and same goes for that gear. I'm a hunter, and can get all the guns I want...A person ought to be able to do anything that money can buy. When the Nannies start asking me for a certification card before I can buy a lift ticket, or Game and Fish ticket me for being on that rock face without a license, that is when Ill know that it is already too late to take the country back.

As for a business to take a position in their plan to protect themselves from the legal eagles who represent the "victims" of stupidity, that is their right. Since today no one seems to be responsible and is a passive victim through the actions of others, I'm going to make up my own liability release for my insta-buddies when I'm forced to use one. Maybe one for the boat Captain and the DM as well for putting me in an inferred position of being responsible for someone Else's behavior and skill.

 

[redacted]

... Game and Fish ticket me ....

I would be less concerned if it were a proper authority taking action based on legally implemented laws and regulations. At least we would have a vote/voice. What really galls me if the idea that an "expert" is misrepresenting this policy as "industry standard". This one isn't even a problem of the nannies. It appears to be a lone activist trying to role back the clock on a battle already lost.

 

[mweaver40]

70' in Bull Shoals can be a stressful dive. The visability is usually less than 10' and sometimes worse, the temp goes from 82 surface to 54, and can be dark and silty.

I'm not saying it's a super advanced dive but there are number of stressors.

Thoughts with family!

I totally agree with you. I never dove Bull Shoals yet but I dive it's twin Norfork since I recently moved to the area. I does get cold really shallow. Vis is generally low and it is dark down there. I have tech training and a lot of experience in low vis but have chosen so far to keep above 50 ft feet here primarily due to the conditions and solo diving (naughty naughty I know, Looking for buddies ). Point is that 75 ft lake diving is NOT the same as 75 ft Caribbean diving and an untrained diver should not be really be diving let alone at 75 feet in that lake. My guess is he lost his buddy in the vis. It would be extremely easy to do. I would take away 2 general observations. 1) Don't dive with your untrained buddies or if you absolutely will anyway act like an instructor and keep the dive shallow and non challenging. 2) Treat each dive environment individually and respect the conditions. Just because we feel confident at 75 ft somewhere warm, clear and bright with a DM doesn't mean we should do it in a cold dark lake.