Nitrox VIP Sticker not good enough?

[Genesis]

Your missing the point. A non certified diver doesn't know what FO2 or MOD is. The contents label is completly meaningless to them. All they know is that big green and yellow sticker means DO NOT TOUCH.

They know what FO2 is. Its taught in the basic OW class. Composition of AIR - 21% Oxygen (ok, ok, 20.9%), 79% Nitrogen, 0.1% "all the rest." Covered in the basic gas laws portion of ALL open water classes.

If they see a label that says "FO2 21%" they know that it is air and can be dove, provided there is no other gas than Nitrogen on the label (some contents labels list nitrogen, some imply it - I don't list FN2 on the label, for example)

Teaching someone this takes 20 seconds. It is the ONLY way they will ever KNOW what is in the tank they grab - if there's a contents label on it (preferrably one they analyzed and wrote on themselves!)

That sticker doesn't come off easily. What happens if your contents label accidentally gets pulled off? They will think its a regular old air tank.

No, they will know that it is a tank that cannot be dove AT ALL, because it lacks a required piece of information - what's in the tank, when it was filled, and who certified that it has in it what is supposed to be there (initials.)

The "Nitrox label" tells the potential user of the tank NOTHING, and it leaves entirely exposed the possibility of an air diver grabbing an "air tank" that was MISHANDLED and NOT analyzed.

This is foolhardy beyond words.

A "Nitrox wrapped" tank could have ANY FO2 in it from a HYPOXIC mix to 100% O2! That wrap tells you NOTHING. There is NOTHING wrong with a basic OW diver using a "Nitrox-wrapped" tank IF the FO2 inside the tank is 21%.

NO tank comes off my compressor without having a contents label on it. Never. Once the tank has been dove the contents label is REMOVED. That tank is then UNUSABLE until another contents label is affixed. If I have a set of doubles with 2500 psi in them (LP 72s) and come up with 1800psi left, I will typically affix a NEW contents label showing that, as that's a usable amount of gas for a second dive. If, on the other hand, the amount of remaining gas is not reasonably usable on its own, then I remove the label and do not replace it.

The label contains the FO2 of the gas, the MOD, the date and initials of the person who analyzed the gas. It also contains the COLD fill pressure.

If you grab the tank and find that the pressure is significantly (beyond what can be accounted for by ambient temperature change) different, you KNOW the label is bogus (someone screwed up) and the tank is unusable.

If the label is missing, the tank is unusable, despite what else may (or may not) be on it.

This is the RIGHT way to do it and the RIGHT way to teach it.

You hand me a tank of air, you had damn well be certifying that it IS air. If you're wrong, I am the one who dies, so I insist that you prove to me (or that I prove to myself!) that you're not wrong.

The only way you can prove that to my satisfaction is to analyze the contents and stick a label on the tank with your results, initials and date, or for me to do so personally just prior to going in the water.

 

[MikeFerrara]

A nitrox label does not mean that a non-nitrox diver is unqualified to breathe from the tank! PADI, to the extent they're saying this, is lying.

A CONTENTS label that indicates that either (1) the Oxygen content is not 21% (+/- 1) OR there is a gas in there other than Nitrogen and Oxygen, however, DOES.

There is NOTHING wrong with an air-only certified diver using a Nitrox tank if it has EANx21 in it.

Nothing whatsoever.

No there's not but rather that teach OW students how to read a contents tag and analyze the gas in the tank to verify it, they simplify the process and tell them not to use a tank that's labaled for nitrox. They don't represent it as being law or anything but they do represent it as a method of preventing problems with oxygen.

Indeed, it is probably preferrable, especially if that tank is also O2-service-rated, as the air in there will have effectively ZERO hydrocarbon contamination (as opposed to "some".)

Given my druthers, as an AIR diver, I want the Nitrox-banded, O2-service-rated tank with EANx21 in it.

Yes but then you also want to analyze the gas ans that isn't covered in an OW class. LOL

If PADI is including something then ok, I stand corrected on that account, but then I accuse them of false and misleading statements, since the "band" is simply not relavent. The only relavent issue is that of a CONTENTS TAG, which should be on ALL cylinders.

The only thing that makes the method unreliable is that some divers aren't doing what they were taught.

Unless someone has analyzed the gas in a given cylinder they do not KNOW what is in there. They may BELIEVE it is simply air, but what if the "air tank" was rented to someone who stuck some O2 in there before returning it, and then that tank was topped without draining it first, or the shop sells both Nitrox and Air, and fills off the wrong whip from the bank? Can't happen? It sure as hell can!

Like you say it wouldn't be a bad idea to put contents stickers on all tanks and have ALL divers analyze their own gas but if all the non-nitrox labeled tanks have air in them you don't need to.

Also many shops don't have nitrox or O2 analyzers.

Teaching people to dive without teaching them that ALL cylinders must have a contents label or they are not usable is where the problem lies.

Maybe but these conventions (and that's all they are) came about when nitrox was the exception and was rare. The majority of tanks are still "air" and don't have contents labels stickers and haven't been analyzed. To this day the norm in many if not most places is air. Therefore if all the nitrox tanks are labeled the only duvers that need to worry about contents stickers and analyzing gas are the divers using the tanks with the big ugly green sticker. Within this marking convention not having a ugly wrap is a default contents sticker and it means 21% O2 and 79% nitrogen.

There is one advantage to not using the big ugly stickers and that is that they don't give any useful information underwater and can make that information harder to read. When we use multiple gasses during a single dive all we want is the divers name and the MOD clearly marked. That's all we care about in the water. Since every one on the dive approves every one elses gas and analysis we don't even really care about the name too much. The important thing here is that we are dropping tanks, picking tanks up and switching gasses and we want the tank CLEAN except for information that's useful in that process.

In contrast the big nitrox wrap is meant to convey the information that the tank may contain something other than air and it's meant to convey that information on the surface.

No sticker = AIR That's simple even for one withpoor vision and from a distance. A recreational diver just doesn't need to read the side of his tank during a dive and that's what a vissually clean tank helps facilitate.

The problem here that I see it is that a really somple system hase gotten hosed up by recreational divers wanting to adopt technical diving marking standards (conventions) for no other reason than to avoid the purchase of a sticker. LOL

 

[Genesis]

No sticker = AIR That's simple even for one withpoor vision and from a distance. A recreational diver just doesn't need to read the side of his tank during a dive and that's what a vissually clean tank helps facilitate.

The problem here that I see it is that a really somple system hase gotten hosed up by recreational divers wanting to adopt technical diving marking standards for no other reason than to avoid the purchase of a sticker. LOL

No stiicker = AIR only works if the tank never leaves the control of the person who put the air in the tank, and they had no ability to put anything OTHER than air in the tank (e.g. just an air compressor)

Of course this isn't reality. A rental tank goes out and comes back. Its out of the control of the shop. Most shops don't dump the old air, they fill on top of what's there.

The POSSIBILITY of a problem is very real, and impossible for that shop to detect. Most of those shops don't even log the serial number that goes to a given diver, so if it DID happen they wouldn't know who did it!

There is only one defense to this that actually works - a contents label backed by an analysis.

 

[MikeFerrara]

No stiicker = AIR only works if the tank never leaves the control of the person who put the air in the tank, and they had no ability to put anything OTHER than air in the tank (e.g. just an air compressor)

Of course this isn't reality. A rental tank goes out and comes back. Its out of the control of the shop. Most shops don't dump the old air, they fill on top of what's there.

The POSSIBILITY of a problem is very real, and impossible for that shop to detect. Most of those shops don't even log the serial number that goes to a given diver, so if it DID happen they wouldn't know who did it!

There is only one defense to this that actually works - a contents label backed by an analysis.

You're correct if we assume that some aren't going to follow what has been a long standing convention. This convention, though, not fool proof has worked because "air" was the norm and those using nitrox followed the convention. The only other way is for all divers to analyze their tanks. So far it hasen't been a problem in recreational diving though.

As far as I can tell the marking method that many of us prefer started with the WKPP. At least that's where I first heard of it. All others always used the big sticker and air-only divers just avoided the stickers. Every one else analyzed their gas. Now with recreational diving wanting to adopt this MOD-only marking convention every one will need an analyzer because anything could be in the tank.

Tank marking standards...

Some agencies like IANTD actually have tank marking standards for IANTD facilities that detail how tanks are to be marked. The insurance company simply states that you must follow the standards of the agency under which you are a facility.

Marsh insurance is one that specifically states that and they were no doubt thinking of IANTD standards when they wrote the policy. However, I owned a PADI facility and had marsh insurance. PADI facility standards require nothing except that the diver be certified. The facility standards don't say anything at all about the marking of nitrox tanks. I'd have to look but I don't even remember them saying anything about a visual inspection sticker.

 

[chrpai]

Chris,

Once again you are applying the wrong solution to the problem and not thinking the problem all the way through to it's logical conclusion. As much as it pains me to say it, Genesis has it right on this one.

But seriously, your solution presumes that guys like me will ever agree to put one of those ridiculous green and yellow banners on my tank(s), which I will NEVER do. Therefore as a result, your way of logic precludes divers from understanding how or what a content label does. It's right there by the tank valve and if a diver happens to grab my tank and ignores a sticker as he's putting his first stage on then he probably shouldn't be diving anyway..

Later

Actually the problem of you diving tanks labeled your own way instead of the way the rest of the world labels them is solved by Rule #1.

Go away now.

 

[Boogie711]

Chrpai - I'm not DIR. I dive Nitrox. No big ugly Nitrox Bands on my tanks. It hasn't been a problem.

Admit you're wrong, dude.

Out.

 

[chrpai]

Chrpai - I'm not DIR. I dive Nitrox. No big ugly Nitrox Bands on my tanks. It hasn't been a problem.

Admit you're wrong, dude.

Out.

Just because you and a few other cyberdivers go off and do it your own way doesn't invalidate the way countless agencies teach it. It doesn't make someone who does it the way the industry teaches an unsafe diver or a lemming.

 

[MHK]

Actually the problem of you diving tanks labeled your own way instead of the way the rest of the world labels them is solved by Rule #1.

Go away now.

Chris,

PADI first off started saying that Nitrox was voodoo gas and snake oil, then they smelled the money and finally decided to get into the game. Once they did they dreamed up a marketing scheme that requires a 6" silly banner with green and yellow, but also notice that it's got the nice old PADI logo on it.. That's why they invented this standard, the scuba and Nitrox community was doing quite well until PADI dreamed up marketing schemes. BTW, I love that now that they are selling Trimix [ the last agency into the game] they dreamed up their own Trimix sticker.. Boy whoever made that sticker up must not really dive because the largest area is left for the persons name [ unimportant] and whereas the smallest area is designated for the most important thing MOD.. God bless them..

You can dismiss the concept all you want, but the point is that you are suggesting that agencies train sheep. You see a yellow and green banner you don't dive it. If you don't then go ahead and dive. That ignores the penultimate issue which is content, not advertising stickers.. Next time you suggest that all agencies are the same please remind me of this thread, because that is a huge difference..

Later

 

[DeepScuba]

heheheh

He has no clue.

The rest of the world, hehehheh
The clueless world?

You've evidently have never seen a proper content sticker OR content sticker location, Chrpai.




MHK: "As much as it pains me to say it, Genesis has it right on this one."

WoW, bet you thought you'd never see the day!

 

[MHK]

heheheh


MHK: "As much as it pains me to say it, Genesis has it right on this one."

WoW, bet you thought you'd never see the day!

Even a broken clock is right twice a day ;-)