Nitrox VIP Sticker not good enough?

[WillAbbott]

Recently I've taken a Nitrox course (though I still have the dives to finish for my c-card).

Just prior to taking the class I had bought brand new AL80's (my first tanks) after starting the class, I had my shop where I'm doing the class with, fix them up for Nitrox service. They were still new and had only been filled at my shop, who uses a stick for nitrox, and a shop in Washington (to remain nameless) who uses continuous blending. Both shops from my understanding would then have plain air, that is as clean as nitrox, due to it all coming through the same lines, etc.

As for putting them into nitrox service, the valves were rebuilt, and new VIP stickers were aded which state an EANx VIP Inspection.

I've since had them filled at both my shop and the other nameless shop a few times without incident.

This last weekend at the nameless shop, I was told my VIP stickers were no good, and I had to have a different one which stated...

"This tank and valve have passed a visual inspection which conforms to standards set by the scuba diving industry.

this tank and valve have been cleaned for premix. Oxygen content between 22% and 40% Punch here X

This tank and valve have been cleaned in accordance with "O2 Standards" Punch here X"

The guy in the shop filling my tanks with straight 21% (what I wanted anyways) proceeded to rip my content stickers off (which said 21% already) And told me the VIP stickers which are green and yellow, and say EANx VIP or something along those lines wouldn't do squat for me.

He showed me this sticker and gave me one to show my shop.

Upon returning home I went into my shop, and talked to him, knowing fair well my tanks were fine for Nitrox. The owner looked at the sticker (which BTW is from Trident) and proceeded to tell me there are NO "Scuba Diving Industry" standards as the sticker states... there are NOAA standards, and the Compressed Gas Assocation standards, and possibly others, but NO standards state the sticker HAS to say anything about being for premix, just that it's good for Nitrox, OR PP filling/O2 service, should that be the case.

My shop is going to talk to this other shop, mainly as he's gotten them to fill Nitrox tanks with similar markings (only exception is them having the big Nitrox band, which i won't get, and don't want) many times. And the fact that I've had mine filled with 21% with the same markings at least once, without having an issue raised. My friend has had steels filled with EAN there, without anything BUT a Nitrox band, not EAN VIP stickers... etc.

Hopefully they will resolve the issue, if not I'm going to have to get my shop to order me a handful of the stickers the other shop showed me, or a similar sticker from IANTD and we will stick them on there to keep from having problems again.


I don't appreciate having my content stickers ripped off of tanks I payed to have set up for Nitrox, particularly when the teacing in the nitrox class means the next time you get Nitrox fills, you gotta get a visual because that is an indicator of being filled with air which isn't Nitrox clean/compatible

Unfortunately I pretty much have to appease the nameless shop, as it's at one of my primary dive sites with no other shop nearby... with multi-day diving, I will have to get fills from them, or if I didn't get a fill before driving up there... However, to drive 3-4 hours to a dive site, and find I can use Nitrox, is NOT a good thing. I would gladly get fills elsewhere if need be, and if it continues to be an issue I will make sure to get EAN before heading up, though I belive they charge less for EAN than my own shop does. (go figure)


Anyone else had similar issues or problems? PS, if you are from the area and really must know which shop, and/or person at the shop, please PM me, and I will tell, but they are a good shop and I don't want to give them a bad name... just the one guy was being a particularly anal pain in the rear this weekend.

 

[chrpai]

I find it kind of ironic that you don't know anything about equipment requirements and fill procedures for Nitrox and yet you have a signature line that blasts PADI and touts a Hog config. Perhaps you should go back to your Nitrox instructor and ask for clarification.

There are several things you are trying to convey to the person doing the fill and to the person breathing the gas:

1) When was the tank last hydro'd? ( Crown Markings by Hydro Facility)
2) When was the tank last VIP'd? ( VIP sticker )
3) Is this tank marked for Nitrox? ( Green and Yellow sticker)
4) Has the tank been O2 cleaned for PP blending and mixes in excess of 40%? ( If it don't say it on a label, then it hasn't been. )
5) What is in the tank right now and who says so? ( Contents label )

 

[WillAbbott]

I find it kind of ironic that you don't know anything about equipment requirements and fill procedures for Nitrox and yet you have a signature line that blasts PADI and touts a Hog config. Perhaps you should go back to your Nitrox instructor and ask for clarification.

Well I typically don't like getting involved in debates about how agencies train, and what not, other than having my own issues with PADI or previous PADI instructors.

Well I'm also a Padi DM candidate, and have been completely through the knowledge workbook for equipment, and passed, just havent taken the final exam on it yet... and it doesn't cover any of this either.

BTW I passed the Nitrox final with flying colors, and thought I was pretty aware of the "padi" standards.

PADI standards do not dictate what the entire industry does either... and according to the PADI standards in the EAN manual, the only thing my cylinders don't have is the 4" tank band which says Nitrox. I have the visual sticker, and had the contents sticker.

I "blast" PADI even though I continue my education with them, because PADI instructors and/or standards continue to give me garbage... for a training organization who says one of the most important things with equipment is fit and comfort, they are fairly unforgiving of me being more comfortable in a BP/Wings, with a 7' hose, and no snorkel.

Also using a HOG config or DIR or whatever, does not imply one knows all about everything. I know jack about mixing EAN other than the procedures done at the shop, and the different methods used. I know nothing about using Tri-Mix either.


Also the shop owner I talked to about my tanks, IS my nitrox instructor... so apprently there isn't anything wrong with my tanks, other than this other shop. He is also one of the few PADI instructors I've ever talked to who doesn't give me a hard time about a HOG/DIR rig, and don't insist I dive my gear in a configuration identical to thiers. In fact he views it as a way for OW students to see different ways of configuring gear, and asking questions about why I rig it the way I do.

 

[chrpai]

PADI standards do not dictate what the entire industry does either... and according to the PADI standards in the EAN manual, the only thing my cylinders don't have is the 4" tank band which says Nitrox. I have the visual sticker, and had the contents sticker.

Also using a HOG config or DIR or whatever, does not imply one knows all about everything. I know jack about mixing EAN other than the procedures done at the shop, and the different methods used. I know nothing about using Tri-Mix either.


Also the shop owner I talked to about my tanks, IS my nitrox instructor... so apprently there isn't anything wrong with my tanks, other than this other shop.

You have a contents label but not a nitrox sticker? And your instructor is fine with this? If he is, its probaly because he knows you have AIR in there anyways since you havn't actually completed your class and gotten your C-Card.

I suggest you go to another shop for training. As for my Hog comment... I didn't say DIR, you did!

 

[WillAbbott]

There are several things you are trying to convey to the person doing the fill and to the person breathing the gas:

1) When was the tank last hydro'd? ( Crown Markings by Hydro Facility)

obviously this is stamped on my tanks

2) When was the tank last VIP'd? ( VIP sticker )

again, obvoulsy stamped, or they'd insist on doing a visual for me

3) Is this tank marked for Nitrox? ( Green and Yellow sticker)

Oddly enough the visual sticker IS green and yellow, and does state on it that is is an EANx Visual Sticker

4) Has the tank been O2 cleaned for PP blending and mixes in excess of 40%? ( If it don't say it on a label, then it hasn't been. )

No it hasn't, because neither my shop nor the one in question does PP mixing, nor is this tank for more than 40%

5) What is in the tank right now and who says so? ( Contents label )

Well it did say this, until the shop in question tore the stickers off.


I never said you said DIR.

 

[diverbrian]

The LDS that I deal with uses Pre-Mix as well. The tanks that I use have a sticker stating that they are NOT O2 clean to prevent people from thinking that they are just fine for PP blending. The sticker used to say something about "Use for premix nitrox at 40 percent or below only."

If they were O2 cleaned they should have the standard nitrox stickers stating that they are O2 clean and may have EANx to a percentage that will have to be verified by checking the contents tag.

The ones approved for "Pre-mix only" should be fine even if filled with air as they wouldn't have an O2 clean status to violate. The others should have the grade of air used for nitrox or nitrox fills only.

I am assuming since you had the valves rebuilt, that you had these tanks O2 cleaned. If you did, get an O2 clean sticker and that will tell a more complete story to whoever fills these tanks.

 

[diverbrian]

Another thing, don't YOU fill out the contents tag? If you do how could the shop tear it off before you leave with the analyzed tank?

 

[WillAbbott]

Another thing, don't YOU fill out the contents tag? If you do how could the shop tear it off before you leave with the analyzed tank?

He didn't even do analyzing... he told me he wouldn't put Nitrox in it, even IF I asked for it (I only wanted 21% or air anyways)

So we didn't analyze it, or anything... it was his way of not only stating but showing that they were not Nitrox tanks in his oppinion.

If I would have had Nitrox bands on the cylinders, he probably would have yanked them off... he didn't yank the EAN VIP sticker, because well then I wouldn't have a VIP sticker.

We rebuilt the valves, I'm not sure what rebuilding they did to them, wether they put Viton in, or just redid with O2 compatible grease or what not... the cylinders were not O2 cleaned however, just valve rebuild. I just did what the shop said needed to be done to put them into Nitrox service.

 

[chrpai]

obviously this is stamped on my tanks

Oddly enough the visual sticker IS green and yellow, and does state on it that is is an EANx Visual Sticker

Well it did say this, until the shop in question tore the stickers off.

There is the problem. It is not suffiicent for a VIP sticker to also serve as a Nitrox Sticker! The Nitrox Label needs to be wrapped around the top part of the tank in bold letters stating that this is a nitrox tank.

I'm glad the shop tore off your contents label. A contents label is only valid for that one fill. Since he filled your tank, he took off the old label. Since the tank isn't properly marked for nitrox he didn't put a new one on him.

This nameless shop is doing it right, your shop isn't.

 

[chrpai]

If I would have had Nitrox bands on the cylinders, he probably would have yanked them off... he didn't yank the EAN VIP sticker, because well then I wouldn't have a VIP sticker.

If the tank had the approriate nitrox bands he would have given you a clean air fill. Then you would have analyized that it was 21% and filled out a new contents label.

I'm sorry, but your home shop isn't doing things right or teaching it right.