fisheater
Contributor
And Tobin shall set you free!
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New diver - 3 LDSs suggest no BPW - why?
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jcfahy
Contributor
Look at Dive Rite too for a full range of option
The ScubaPro stuff is overpriced and they are likely going to try and steer you towards all the crap you do not need. You do not need all of that extra stuff as you already seem to know. I'm betting they will also try to talk you into a $700 reg that you don;t need as well. A BPW only needs a plate, harness, a wing, and two cam straps if you get a wing designed to work without an STA like the HOG 32 or one of the DSS Singles wings. You also do not need more than around 35-40 lbs of lift for single tank diving from al80's thru steel lp 95's or HP120's. Do not let them talk you into weight systems, a belt works just fine. No sternum straps, quick releases, etc. And while I do believe in supporting local dealers, I do not believe in doing it at my expense to the point that I am spending way more than I need to. That is just stupid. Why spend 600-700 on a BPW system when you can get one that will work just as well and is of equal or in some cases better quality for 350 or so. Makes no sense.
Shops that discourage BPW's for new divers generally do it for three reasons. They do not carry them, the margin is not as high, or they don;t know how to set one up and still have the antiquated idea that they are for "tech dives". These are the shops I try to stay away from for anything other than air fills.
Shops that discourage BPW's for new divers generally do it for three reasons. They do not carry them, the margin is not as high, or they don;t know how to set one up and still have the antiquated idea that they are for "tech dives". These are the shops I try to stay away from for anything other than air fills.
I work with a shop that refuses to sell a BP/W to a new diver -- and I don't know why (unless it is the lack of margin). However, the owner tells me he won't do it because it "isn't safe" for a new diver -- huh? It isn't "safe" because the students learn in a jacket BC and having a different "system" is dangerous. Hmmm -- he doesn't have any problem selling them an I3 system when they learn with a "regular jacket."
For what it's worth, I teach private students in a BP/W and guess what, they don't have any trouble with them! Nor do they seem to have any trouble with renting a jacket BC (just had a couple go to Maui and they did well).
I don't get shops -- and note, I ran my own retail business for over 20 years and dealt with, literally, tens of thousands of customers.
For what it's worth, I teach private students in a BP/W and guess what, they don't have any trouble with them! Nor do they seem to have any trouble with renting a jacket BC (just had a couple go to Maui and they did well).
I don't get shops -- and note, I ran my own retail business for over 20 years and dealt with, literally, tens of thousands of customers.
Ok, I'm going to let you in on a secret. The markup on rec gear is higher than the markup on tech gear. Why? Because tech divers generally have been in the sport for a while, and we know who, where and why to get the gear. We're a bit more educated and sometimes (most times) more informed about our purchases. Dive Rite, Hog, OMS, etc, know we know what we want, and will search anywhere in the nation to find it. (Notice I didn't say halcyon 
).
The other reason is: If we sell you a bcd now, we can sell you a bp/w later. Crooked right?
And, While we don't risk LOSING our dealership, we do risk losing our tier'd pricing if we don't meet a certain dollar amount for the quarter. So, if it costs 50k to maintain top level pricing with Scubapro it's seems like it's in the best interest of the LDS to push SP. In my opinion, an LDS should nudge you in the direction of what you need for the next 5 years while satisfying what you want and worry about their friggin bottom line second.
I always try to talk my students into looking where they are going to be diving in 5 years, then buy the gear that they soon won't outgrow. If you like Hollis or Dive-Rite, look me up. I'll take care of you.
).The other reason is: If we sell you a bcd now, we can sell you a bp/w later. Crooked right?
And, While we don't risk LOSING our dealership, we do risk losing our tier'd pricing if we don't meet a certain dollar amount for the quarter. So, if it costs 50k to maintain top level pricing with Scubapro it's seems like it's in the best interest of the LDS to push SP. In my opinion, an LDS should nudge you in the direction of what you need for the next 5 years while satisfying what you want and worry about their friggin bottom line second.
I always try to talk my students into looking where they are going to be diving in 5 years, then buy the gear that they soon won't outgrow. If you like Hollis or Dive-Rite, look me up. I'll take care of you.
I think dive shops discourage new divers from backplate/harness systems for a lot of reasons, and a few have some merit.
To begin with, BP/W systems are intentionally modular. If you want pockets, you have to buy them separately, and figure out where you are going to put them. Similarly, you have to figure out where and how you are going to carry your weights, and for new divers, I think it's important to figure out how to make them ditchable. All this is already done for you, when you buy a "traditional" BC.
In addition, one of the biggest advantages of a backplate to me -- that the system is perfectly adjusted for you, every time you put it on -- is also a disadvantage for a new diver. Unless you have experienced help setting up your equipment, it is very easy to get the harness wrong. It will then either not be stable, or it may be very difficult to get in and out of the gear. (Read my thread, which I can't figure out how to search for, on getting stuck in my backplate. It's entitled "The humiliations of Fundies have begun". )
And the final piece is that a lot of shops don't have any experience with the equipment, and aren't sure how to advise people on what to choose or how to set it up. They'd much rather sell you equipment with which they are familiar (and even then, you don't always get any useful advice on what will work best for YOU).
Having said all of this, I firmly believe that backplate systems are quite reasonable for new divers, and have the advantage of not setting any limits at all on what your eventual diving can or will be. And although it's a bit of a drive, if you head up to High Springs, you will find any number of shops which will be more than pleased to put you in a backplate system (and among the shops, you'll probably have one of the best opportunities in the world to look at different brands and setups!).
To begin with, BP/W systems are intentionally modular. If you want pockets, you have to buy them separately, and figure out where you are going to put them. Similarly, you have to figure out where and how you are going to carry your weights, and for new divers, I think it's important to figure out how to make them ditchable. All this is already done for you, when you buy a "traditional" BC.
In addition, one of the biggest advantages of a backplate to me -- that the system is perfectly adjusted for you, every time you put it on -- is also a disadvantage for a new diver. Unless you have experienced help setting up your equipment, it is very easy to get the harness wrong. It will then either not be stable, or it may be very difficult to get in and out of the gear. (Read my thread, which I can't figure out how to search for, on getting stuck in my backplate. It's entitled "The humiliations of Fundies have begun". )
And the final piece is that a lot of shops don't have any experience with the equipment, and aren't sure how to advise people on what to choose or how to set it up. They'd much rather sell you equipment with which they are familiar (and even then, you don't always get any useful advice on what will work best for YOU).
Having said all of this, I firmly believe that backplate systems are quite reasonable for new divers, and have the advantage of not setting any limits at all on what your eventual diving can or will be. And although it's a bit of a drive, if you head up to High Springs, you will find any number of shops which will be more than pleased to put you in a backplate system (and among the shops, you'll probably have one of the best opportunities in the world to look at different brands and setups!).
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
A lot of the contempt divers have for LDS's in warranted.
Margin, tier pricing, aggregate sales, all of it has already been covered ad nauseum in many threads here on SB.
My take on it is that there are two parallel universes in diving.
One is the path that the LDS walk-in customer takes that doesn't ever go to internet boards or have any outside information about diving other than the exposure and info they get from their LDS and the sales people/intructional staff.
They go through all the classes and buy what the LDS sells them and they think they are on the cutting edge of everything scuba because they are told they are. This side is the larger side of scuba BTW.
The other side are the divers that are more internet savvy and go to internet boards to gather info, and/or have hooked up with independant instructors/mentors who know about alternate gear and methods.
To save me a lot of typing we know about all this. If you are reading this then you know about this side of the universe.
Where there is a crossover is when the first group interacts with the second group and all of a sudden the first group pops their heads up out of the clouds and they see the WHOLE PICTURE the way it really is.
The more and more they learn about how and why the LDS operates the way it does in all aspects of the dive business the more disgusted they become.
I see this personally every day as new divers join our club and see all the different gear we use besides what was sold to them. After they discover that the latest poodle jacket with the elevator lever actually isn't the coolest thing on earth and how much money they wasted on gear that they will be selling after only about 20 dives they get pissed!
It's no wonder the LDS loses customers and pray that the next uninformed sucker comes along.
I think what pisses them off the most is that LDS's know about this other universe but choose profits over the best interest and long term happiness of the customer.
It's all about the money, nothing more nothing less.
And the line about a BP/W being unsafe for a new diver, that's a total load of crap!
Whatever a new diver learns to dive in is what they will be used to. They won't know any different either way.
Margin, tier pricing, aggregate sales, all of it has already been covered ad nauseum in many threads here on SB.
My take on it is that there are two parallel universes in diving.
One is the path that the LDS walk-in customer takes that doesn't ever go to internet boards or have any outside information about diving other than the exposure and info they get from their LDS and the sales people/intructional staff.
They go through all the classes and buy what the LDS sells them and they think they are on the cutting edge of everything scuba because they are told they are. This side is the larger side of scuba BTW.
The other side are the divers that are more internet savvy and go to internet boards to gather info, and/or have hooked up with independant instructors/mentors who know about alternate gear and methods.
To save me a lot of typing we know about all this. If you are reading this then you know about this side of the universe.
Where there is a crossover is when the first group interacts with the second group and all of a sudden the first group pops their heads up out of the clouds and they see the WHOLE PICTURE the way it really is.
The more and more they learn about how and why the LDS operates the way it does in all aspects of the dive business the more disgusted they become.
I see this personally every day as new divers join our club and see all the different gear we use besides what was sold to them. After they discover that the latest poodle jacket with the elevator lever actually isn't the coolest thing on earth and how much money they wasted on gear that they will be selling after only about 20 dives they get pissed!
It's no wonder the LDS loses customers and pray that the next uninformed sucker comes along.
I think what pisses them off the most is that LDS's know about this other universe but choose profits over the best interest and long term happiness of the customer.
It's all about the money, nothing more nothing less.
And the line about a BP/W being unsafe for a new diver, that's a total load of crap!
Whatever a new diver learns to dive in is what they will be used to. They won't know any different either way.
Not long time ago i was where u r right now. Diving gear is expensive, so unless u hv kind and numerous diving friends, u usually dont get much chances to try everything to see what u would like. More important, it takes time to get used to stuff, at least a few dives - which also means, u can get used to almost anything, so dont make too big fuss about it.
i m not a fanatic diving robot, and i am not 20 anymore so this is my perspective - and i m writing this actually without much reading what ppl before me said here, coz everybody has his right opinion so sorry if i m just repeating what other ppl hv already said:
1) both "wing-styled BCDs" and BPW are great options. i know more than one great divers, who keep diving BCDs. including an instructor friend who got Zeagle, he makes wonderful UW videos, hangs in water column steadily like a bancrupcy threat above Greece... if the stuff were really bad, these guys would not be using it for hundreds of dives and hours of footage.
2) on my dive 50, the guy in the dive shop (devondiver if i remember his nick correctly just hang a BPW on my back, and i hv never looked back again.
3) for a single tank/wetsuit, i use BPW from DSS which is great: stainless backplate and their excellent lightweight tropical wing. Service was great, Tobin gave me very right advice abt sizes and everything. But there are also some clouds on the DSS sky. First, the supplied knife was not very good quality, got eaten by rust and i replaced it long time ago. When i dive with ppl who use straps from Dive Rite, i got feeling that after similar time of the use, their straps look less worn out than mine. Third, i dont know how old and flexible you are, but every time when i struggle to get out of hogarthian config, especially when in dry suit, i REALLY envy the guys who use system with buckles on the shoulder strap (OMS, Dive Rite etc.): CLICK and out u go. Fourth, and most important: DSS for some reasons has their own specific placement of holes on the plate. Which is absolutely perfect if u do the things their way. But once u want to attach something (weight pouches, or pouch for an SMB...) u simply cant coz the holes dont match and u have to find somebody who is able to drill 2-3mm thick stainless steel for you coz this is not exactly what your 29,- usd MadeInChina drill would survive in one piece. Tobin's response was, "u dont put SMB into a pouch, u stuff it into the vertical space between your back and the BP" - yes, he is right in his way, but i also have my reasons why i simply WANT to use the pouch - and i cant hang i on DSS BP.
4) for dry suit/twin tanks+stages diving i use a bigger wing of another great producer (a small, but very reliable EU company Anhinga) with the required lift.
So if i were you, i would try first to visit diveshops and RENT as many different rigs as you are able to do actual dives using them. Also, many manufacturers actually even let u try their stuff during some events and promotions. And then make your decision. The more u dive, the more configs u will end up with which will suit different types of diving.
Hv fun!
i m not a fanatic diving robot, and i am not 20 anymore
so this is my perspective - and i m writing this actually without much reading what ppl before me said here, coz everybody has his right opinion so sorry if i m just repeating what other ppl hv already said:1) both "wing-styled BCDs" and BPW are great options. i know more than one great divers, who keep diving BCDs. including an instructor friend who got Zeagle, he makes wonderful UW videos, hangs in water column steadily like a bancrupcy threat above Greece... if the stuff were really bad, these guys would not be using it for hundreds of dives and hours of footage.
2) on my dive 50, the guy in the dive shop (devondiver if i remember his nick correctly
just hang a BPW on my back, and i hv never looked back again. 3) for a single tank/wetsuit, i use BPW from DSS which is great: stainless backplate and their excellent lightweight tropical wing. Service was great, Tobin gave me very right advice abt sizes and everything. But there are also some clouds on the DSS sky. First, the supplied knife was not very good quality, got eaten by rust and i replaced it long time ago. When i dive with ppl who use straps from Dive Rite, i got feeling that after similar time of the use, their straps look less worn out than mine. Third, i dont know how old and flexible you are, but every time when i struggle to get out of hogarthian config, especially when in dry suit, i REALLY envy the guys who use system with buckles on the shoulder strap (OMS, Dive Rite etc.): CLICK and out u go. Fourth, and most important: DSS for some reasons has their own specific placement of holes on the plate. Which is absolutely perfect if u do the things their way. But once u want to attach something (weight pouches, or pouch for an SMB...) u simply cant coz the holes dont match and u have to find somebody who is able to drill 2-3mm thick stainless steel for you coz this is not exactly what your 29,- usd MadeInChina drill would survive in one piece. Tobin's response was, "u dont put SMB into a pouch, u stuff it into the vertical space between your back and the BP" - yes, he is right in his way, but i also have my reasons why i simply WANT to use the pouch - and i cant hang i on DSS BP.
4) for dry suit/twin tanks+stages diving i use a bigger wing of another great producer (a small, but very reliable EU company Anhinga) with the required lift.
So if i were you, i would try first to visit diveshops and RENT as many different rigs as you are able to do actual dives using them. Also, many manufacturers actually even let u try their stuff during some events and promotions. And then make your decision. The more u dive, the more configs u will end up with which will suit different types of diving.
Hv fun!
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