New diver - 3 LDSs suggest no BPW - why?

[travelrider]

And the line about a BP/W being unsafe for a new diver, that's a total load of crap! Whatever a new diver learns to dive in is what they will be used to. They won't know any different either way.

At my request, I dove in several different configurations while getting certified.
I dove in a standard Jacket for my Pool Dives
I dove in a Back inflate for OW-1 and OW-2
And today, I dove in a BP/W for OW-3 and OW-4, got certified today (yeah), and lived to tell the story! I had a couple of complaints about the BP/W, but nothing that adjustment and practice can't fix.
Complaints: (1) My instructor insisted (for instructional reasons) that I wear ditchable weights with it. Without those big weight pockets, the BP/W I dove in today would have been less hassle. (2) It was just a little harder to get in and out of than a jacket and I think experience and some time playing with adjustments will fix that. (3) The bungee retainer to hold the inflator doesn't seem as nice as what comes on the BCDs. I kept having trouble getting my inflator high enough to evacuate all the air because the bungee was keeping me from doing it (or I was doing it wrong). With all that said, BP/W was my overall favorite and I'm definitely buying a BP/W now.

Off topic on my own thread here, but the PADI Open Water seems like very minimal training. I'm sure I'll survive reasonable recreational diving, but I'm already ready for more training and lots of PRACTICE.

Any Tampa Bay (St. Pete) area BP/W experts want to take me under their wing for adjustments once I get my gear? Maybe a couple of dives for practice? I'll buy the fills and lunch!

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

At my request, I dove in several different configurations while getting certified.
I dove in a standard Jacket for my Pool Dives
I dove in a Back inflate for OW-1 and OW-2
And today, I dove in a BP/W for OW-3 and OW-4, got certified today (yeah), and lived to tell the story! I had a couple of complaints about the BP/W, but nothing that adjustment and practice can't fix.
Complaints: (1) My instructor insisted (for instructional reasons) that I wear ditchable weights with it. Without those big weight pockets, the BP/W I dove in today would have been less hassle. (2) It was just a little harder to get in and out of than a jacket and I think experience and some time playing with adjustments will fix that. (3) The bungee retainer to hold the inflator doesn't seem as nice as what comes on the BCDs. I kept having trouble getting my inflator high enough to evacuate all the air because the bungee was keeping me from doing it (or I was doing it wrong). With all that said, BP/W was my overall favorite and I'm definitely buying a BP/W now.

Off topic on my own thread here, but the PADI Open Water seems like very minimal training. I'm sure I'll survive reasonable recreational diving, but I'm already ready for more training and lots of PRACTICE.

Any Tampa Bay (St. Pete) area BP/W experts want to take me under their wing for adjustments once I get my gear? Maybe a couple of dives for practice? I'll buy the fills and lunch!

With the ditchable weight pockets:
I prefer, as many do, a good old tried and trued weight belt. With a BP/W you will be able to remove a little off the belt and if you eventually go to a steel tank you can remove even more.
Weighbelts are good because you can separate some weight off of your rig instead of having everything in the BC which is the case with integrated weight units.
Removing and replacing your rig underwater would be one instance where having a weightbelt is a good idea.

Getting out of a Hog rigged BP/W unit is very easy and lightning fast. The mistake people make trying to get out of them is to put your arms back and shimmy the thing off like you would a coat. The secret is to get your hand under the strap and slide your hand/arm under and out forward letting the strap slide back and off of your folded arm. I *think* they call this the chicken wing method?
Whatever it's called it works and I can be out faster that the time it takes a jacket user to find and undo their first or second clip.

 

[Ben_ca]

Why sell you 1 BC when they can sell you 3 (Applies to fins and regs also)

 

[travelrider]

The ScubaPro stuff is overpriced and they are likely going to try and steer you towards all the crap you do not need. You do not need all of that extra stuff as you already seem to know.

Definitely WAY overpriced and you're on the right track with them showing me shoulder pads and weight accessories, etc, etc.

I'm betting they will also try to talk you into a $700 reg that you don;t need as well.

"The ScubaPro MK25/A700 is best! They've been making the MK25 for over 20 years in some form or another, so it has stood the test of time. You really want a great regulator! I consider it life support, so I don't care how much it costs me" (Uh, yeah, he gets it at cost and writes it off as a business expense which I bet is half what they want to sell it to me for). And life support? Seriously? No regulator manufacturer is going to sell a regulator, even the cheapest one in their lineup, that kills people once in a while. Give me a break.

While we're on this subject, just how much SHOULD I spend on a reg? I was thinking about buying the Atomic Z2 and adding miflex line to it, which isn't exactly cheap, but it's certainly not the most expensive reg out there. Is all this "easier to breathe" rhetoric nonsense or is there some reality to some of that with a higher end reg breathing easier than a low end reg? I could save a lot of money over Atomic with brands like Zeagle or Oceanic.

A BPW only needs a plate, harness, a wing, and two cam straps if you get a wing designed to work without an STA like the HOG 32 or one of the DSS Singles wings.

Do you like the ones that do not require an STA better than those that do? Or is it just a personal preference? Pros / cons?

Do not let them talk you into weight systems, a belt works just fine. No sternum straps, quick releases, etc.

Seems old school to wear a weight belt, but makes a lot of sense. And if you ditch them, all you've lost is the weights and a $5 strap instead of those $50+ weight pockets.

What about a crotch strap?

And while I do believe in supporting local dealers, I do not believe in doing it at my expense to the point that I am spending way more than I need to.

I agree. I might buy my computer from these guys since I'm leaning towards the Galileo Luna, but other than that, I don't see them selling me much except air and Nitrox.

That is just stupid. Why spend 600-700 on a BPW system when you can get one that will work just as well and is of equal or in some cases better quality for 350 or so. Makes no sense.

Try $770 for the ScubaPro BP/W. :shocked2:

Shops that discourage BPW's for new divers generally do it for three reasons. They do not carry them, the margin is not as high, or they don;t know how to set one up and still have the antiquated idea that they are for "tech dives".

I have been to four shops. One discouraged me saying it was a bad idea for new divers but I couldn't find a BP/W anywhere in the store, so I know their angle. One had BP/W stuff but still tried to steer me towards their ScubaPro BCs - probably looking out for their ScubaPro numbers. One Zeagle dealer tried to steer me away from BP/W and even the Express Tech in favor of the Zeagle Stiletto. Not sure what their reason was behind saying no to ZET. Only the ScubaPro Platinum dealer (which coincidentally is the dealer I got my cert from) thought a BP/W was OK for a new diver, but their profits certainly weren't going to be hurt if I bought their $770 ScubaPro BP/W!


Thanks everyone for all your great responses to this and all my other posts. The folks on this board have been immensely helpful!

 

[travelrider]

The other reason is: If we sell you a bcd now, we can sell you a bp/w later. Crooked right?

And, While we don't risk LOSING our dealership, we do risk losing our tier'd pricing if we don't meet a certain dollar amount for the quarter.

They also risk losing all future sales from a customer once they get savvy enough to realize what was done to them. There's a car dealership I won't buy another car from EVER again over $500 because it was shady. Same applies to an LDS getting caught with their hand in the profit cookie jar over having good customer service.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

They also risk losing all future sales from a customer once they get savvy enough to realize what was done to them. There's a car dealership I won't buy another car from EVER again over $500 because it was shady. Same applies to an LDS getting caught with their hand in the profit cookie jar over having good customer service.

I don't have a beef with LDS's needing to make a living, but I do have a beef with them when they purposely lie to people so they can make a quick sale. and keep up their aggregate sales quota for their precious tier.
Maybe it's time for the manufacturers to stop bullying the dive shops and let them pick and choose the stuff they want to sell out of their line instead of the all or nothing system. Or, maybe it's time for the dive shops to just say no and take ownership of their business once again and quit cowing down to those goons.

The trick is for the LDS to learn about their customer and sell them exactly what they need for their future diving. This might mean that the LDS will have to start carrying BP/W's and it might also mean that said LDS needs to learn about them and get their instructional staff to learn about them and use them. So what if it dilutes the sales of the poodle jackets, at least they wuill make the customer happy and that's way more important that one quick sale and a pissed off customer that never comes back.
There are some divers (most) that will be fine with buying a weight integrated jacket for the type of diving they do.
But at least find out what diving path they seek and outfit them accordingly.
Oh yeah, and LDS's, be prepared to get your price a little closer to internet prices. They don't have to match but at least make an effort. Even if you make $50 bucks on something that you normally would have made a $100, would you like to have the $50 or nothing?

 

[TSandM]

DEFINITELY get a crotch strap! You might think one would be uncomfortable, but it isn't, and it's a key part of the rock-solid stability of a backplate system.

As far as regs go, up until a little while ago, the SP MK25/S600 was my hands-down favorite regulator (and I get to see how quite a few breathe, because I run in a circle of people who practice air-sharing quite a bit). But my husband and I have switched all of our regulators over to HOGs now. They breathe just as well, at least down to 150 (which is as deep as I've had them) and they were significantly less expensive. Plus, if you get any technical training, you have the option of taking the maintenance class and learning to do your own regulator service, which can save you quite a bit of money.

 

[Bob DBF]

Because the LDS dosen't make enough money on them, new divers are overwhelemed with the whole dive experience, and ZKY posted three times to help and hasn't mentioned he makes a sweet minimalist plate. All adds up to another poodle jacket sold.


Bob
Another satisfied Freedom Plate customer.
-----------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[flots am]

Is there any legitimacy to their purported concerns about a new diver using a BPW or minimalist system like the Zeagle Express Tech?

A BC is what it is. It's a place to attach a tank and a bag to hold some air to compensate for buoyancy lost by wetsuit compression, or gained by loss of air mass from the tank.

If all you want is something to hold a tank, you can get by with a small backpack and some webbing, or even just a tank and a rope handle.

If you need to conpensate for buoyancy changes (not actually necessary with a small tank), then you need a bouyancy compensator of some sort. Either a BP/W or a jacket will work just fine.

If you want pockets, you can add them to the plate or it's webbing, or buy a cloth BC that has them. The same goes for d-rings.

You'll find that everybody promotes either what they manufacture, use or carry in stock. The BP/W manufacturers will tell you that theirs is superior because that's what they manufacture. The BP/W users will tell you that theirs is clearly superior because that's what they use. The stores will tell you that a cloth BC is clearly superior because that's what they carry and sell. The cloth BC users will tell you that theirs is better because that's what they use.

I don't manufacture or sell anything, own both, and in my opinion it makes absolutely no difference at all which one you get, unless you're going to be using a set of heavy doubles. A steel BP holds ~100+ Lbs worth of tanks better than a cloth BC.

Other than that, try a few styles in the pool and buy what makes you happy.

flots.

 

[flots am]

While we're on this subject, just how much SHOULD I spend on a reg? I was thinking about buying the Atomic Z2 and adding miflex line to it, which isn't exactly cheap, but it's certainly not the most expensive reg out there. Is all this "easier to breathe" rhetoric nonsense or is there some reality to some of that with a higher end reg breathing easier than a low end reg? I could save a lot of money over Atomic with brands like Zeagle or Oceanic.

I bought a SCUBAPRo Mk-1 on Ebay for $50 and it works as well as anything else I've ever used.

flots.