NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

[Jax]

Here's another question on the same vein . . .

If "everybody" disagrees with the minimum equipment list, what are you doing about it?

 

[ucfdiver]

Here's another question on the same vein . . .

If "everybody" disagrees with the minimum equipment list, what are you doing about it?

Keeping my membership and donations going towards groups that have up to date standards.

 

[PfcAJ]

Oh, I don't know about that. I think instructors should let students use the singles. The person may decide cave isn't for him or her. I wouldn't want to just jump into a cave class in a bunch of gear I haven't practiced in. I'd look like a bigger spaz then normal!

Cavemn, help me understand why you think that is lax?

It makes sense to me. From a student point of view, s/he doesn't have to lay out a ton of money to take cavern & intro. The student learns the skills, practices them, dives within the certs, and decides if and when to make the outlay of funds to go full cave.

However, the student also has the right to go into training with doubles. The student HAS to show mastery of the skills AND doubles, so that the cave environment task load does not over tax the diver who is unfamiliar with doubles. So, the instructor evaluates, and gives the thumb up/down for training in doubles.

I don't see "lax" in any of this, because the choice the instructors' whether they allow doubles or require them.

Me, I'm really glad I had a year to practice after sidemount training before signing up for cavern / intro.

AJ, you seem of the belief that everyone should dive full cave gear from the beginning. It's a thought, but also throws up a huge barrier.

Others -- much, much, smarter and experienced than I, wrote standards that allow redundancy in everything but the tank. I would guess that the buddy is a redundant gas source.

I am pleased that the standards are not dictorial, but leave much to the judgement of the instructor. I would guess the agencies empower those they certified as instructors because they trust those people.

I turned down my first invite to a guided cavern tour . . . I did not know an instructor could take a person one level above their training. I declined because I thought I had to be IN a cave class to enter uncertified. At some point -- as much as we eschew "trust me" dives -- one HAS to trust the instructor's judgement that I as a student have demonstrated the skills and mental capacity to handle this new environment.

The problem with "rules" is that it takes away the discretion and judgment abilities of those on the ground, where the rubber meets the road. Sure, I read a couple of years ago, that I could jump into cave with few dives. *I* made the personal choice that I wanted more dives under my belt - not to meet some mark on the wall, but to know the confidence in my own skills and abilities that would take me into the cave as a learning environment. I know I can do all the things that I will be called upon to do. Maybe not with grace and skill, but I can execute. Now I trust my instructor to put me together with the cave environment.

I think I'm saying this badly . . . :whatever:

And NO ONE has advocated lesser gear, btw . . . neither instructor nor mentors.

Did my curiosity about the 58cuft lead you to think someone was advocating a single tank?


Just because a single 72cf is the absolute minimum, doesn't mean anyone is advocating[\i] it. Au contraire, everyone told me to dial in my doubles before thinking about anything advanced.

Al of that is where I picked up the idea that you think singles are ok, mostly because its cheaper. Personally, I'd rather less people get into cave diving. High diver traffic f's up caves, and I don't like that. Also, the more divers there are, the more total deaths there will be. More total deaths = more opportunity for cave closure. I don't like that either. Imo, if you want to cave dive, you should be devoted and seek out the best.

 

[Jax]

Al of that is where I picked up the idea that you think singles are ok, mostly because its cheaper. Personally, I'd rather less people get into cave diving. High diver traffic f's up caves, and I don't like that. Also, the more divers there are, the more total deaths there will be. More total deaths = more opportunity for cave closure. I don't like that either. Imo, if you want to cave dive, you should be devoted and seek out the best.

Then I guess I wasn't clear. *I* personally would not dive a single in a cavern/cave. I understand why the agencies allow it. I support the agencies' decision because I think they know their business better than I.

I do not believe a cave diver has to be devoted and seek out the best. I believe all should do their best, understand their limitations, and stay within them.

 

[Jax]

Keeping my membership and donations going towards groups that have up to date standards.

Do you do any campaigning to increase the standards, or equipment minimums? Perhaps publish an opinion paper in a mag or online to generate discussion and woo opinion to your side?

 

[LiteHedded]

Then I guess I wasn't clear. *I* personally would not dive a single in a cavern/cave. I understand why the agencies allow it. I support the agencies' decision because I think they know their business better than I.

I do not believe a cave diver has to be devoted and seek out the best. I believe all should do their best, understand their limitations, and stay within them.

your attitude is top notch. you'll fit right in in 'cave country'.
hopefully you don't end up a statistic and one of us doesn't get the call if you do.

 

[Jax]

your attitude is top notch. you'll fit right in in 'cave country'.
hopefully you don't end up a statistic and one of us doesn't get the call if you do.

Help me understand why you think one must always 'be the best'. Why is being a damn good cave tourist a bad thing? I have no desire to be an Edd Sorenson.

It's like wreck divers saying, "You aren't a wreck diver until you dive the Andrea Doria."

 

[LiteHedded]

Help me understand why you think one must always 'be the best'. Why is being a damn good cave tourist a bad thing? I have no desire to be an Edd Sorenson.

It's like wreck divers saying, "You aren't a wreck diver until you dive the Andrea Doria."

no you're right. mediocrity is what you want to strive for. if you found an instructor that will accept it then you two will make quite the team.

 

[Jax]

no you're right. mediocrity is what you want to strive for. if you found an instructor that will accept it then you two will make quite the team.

Quite the pendulum swing, don't you think? One is either the best, or "mediocre"?

Does one always have to strive to perfection? "Skilled" is not good enough, one must be "the best"?

 

[PfcAJ]

If you haven't noticed, almost all the cave deaths are in 'tourist caves' on somewhat heavily traveled areas. There are a few oddballs, of course, but they are few.

Cutting corners, quick fixes, and general slackassery so not mix well with cave diving. This is a very unforgiving activity where simple mistakes can land you in a pine box. Its not all fun and games. You can have fun doing it (and I do almost every dive), but it must be taken seriously. If you are not willing to devote some serious time to bettering yourself (to include inwater skills, dive planning, and sharpening your mental focus) I'd look elsewhere.