NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

[Jax]

You don't see anything lax about allowing students into a cave without redundancy? What about someone who has been certified a week being qualified to take intro to cave? What about not requiring any sort of intro to tech before cavern?

Funny how $$ decides what level of redundancy one takes into a cave. Some backwards to me.

If you aren't in a position to invest the proper amount of time and money into an endeavor, then don't.

AJ, you seem of the belief that everyone should dive full cave gear from the beginning. It's a thought, but also throws up a huge barrier.

Others -- much, much, smarter and experienced than I, wrote standards that allow redundancy in everything but the tank. I would guess that the buddy is a redundant gas source.

I am pleased that the standards are not dictorial, but leave much to the judgement of the instructor. I would guess the agencies empower those they certified as instructors because they trust those people.

I turned down my first invite to a guided cavern tour . . . I did not know an instructor could take a person one level above their training. I declined because I thought I had to be IN a cave class to enter uncertified. At some point -- as much as we eschew "trust me" dives -- one HAS to trust the instructor's judgement that I as a student have demonstrated the skills and mental capacity to handle this new environment.

The problem with "rules" is that it takes away the discretion and judgment abilities of those on the ground, where the rubber meets the road. Sure, I read a couple of years ago, that I could jump into cave with few dives. *I* made the personal choice that I wanted more dives under my belt - not to meet some mark on the wall, but to know the confidence in my own skills and abilities that would take me into the cave as a learning environment. I know I can do all the things that I will be called upon to do. Maybe not with grace and skill, but I can execute. Now I trust my instructor to put me together with the cave environment.

I think I'm saying this badly . . . :whatever:

 

[cavemn]

Funny how $$ decides what level of redundancy one takes into a cave. Some backwards to me.

If you aren't in a position to invest the proper amount of time and money into an endeavor, then don't.

Guided cavern dives and proper rental equipment should be a big help if $$$ is a factor. Beyond that cave diving can get expensive.

 

[ucfdiver]

I am pleased that the standards are not dictorial, but leave much to the judgement of the instructor. I would guess the agencies empower those they certified as instructors because they trust those people.

You're pleased that, when you have a card, no one really knows what it means? I'm not. I'm growing tired of hearing "It's not the agency, it's the instructor". WHY should a student with no training or experience be responsible for weeding out bad instructors? Why can't the agency BOD do that?

Most importantly, when we go to a landowner, or the state, should we tell them to honor a list of instructors cards, since we all openly admit the agency won't do anything to increase standards?

 

[ianr33]

When I did my intro class I was deco certified and used to diving with doubles/deco tank/drysuit. IMHO that's the best way to approach cave training.

If the agencies want to allow people to dive caves with just a Speedo and Spare Air I really don't care. What I never understood is why some agencies would not allow the best tool for the job.

Of course, it's now moot as I'm Full Cave and therefore certified to do any stupid stuff I wish in a cave. (Provided I start with at least 58 cu ft of gas! )

 

[Jax]

When I did my intro class I was deco certified and used to diving with doubles/deco tank/drysuit. IMHO that's the best way to approach cave training.

If the agencies want to allow people to dive caves with just a Speedo and Spare Air I really don't care. What I never understood is why some agencies would not allow the best tool for the job.

Of course, it's now moot as I'm Full Cave and therefore certified to do any stupid stuff I wish in a cave. (Provided I start with at least 58 cu ft of gas! )

:lol: Well, as I understand it, all agencies allow the bests tools now. However, I agree with your reasoning. That's why I did my classes first, too.

 

[LiteHedded]

AJ, you seem of the belief that everyone should dive full cave gear from the beginning. It's a thought, but also throws up a huge barrier.

Others -- much, much, smarter and experienced than I, wrote standards that allow redundancy in everything but the tank. I would guess that the buddy is a redundant gas source.

I am pleased that the standards are not dictorial, but leave much to the judgement of the instructor. I would guess the agencies empower those they certified as instructors because they trust those people.

I turned down my first invite to a guided cavern tour . . . I did not know an instructor could take a person one level above their training. I declined because I thought I had to be IN a cave class to enter uncertified. At some point -- as much as we eschew "trust me" dives -- one HAS to trust the instructor's judgement that I as a student have demonstrated the skills and mental capacity to handle this new environment.

The problem with "rules" is that it takes away the discretion and judgment abilities of those on the ground, where the rubber meets the road. Sure, I read a couple of years ago, that I could jump into cave with few dives. *I* made the personal choice that I wanted more dives under my belt - not to meet some mark on the wall, but to know the confidence in my own skills and abilities that would take me into the cave as a learning environment. I know I can do all the things that I will be called upon to do. Maybe not with grace and skill, but I can execute. Now I trust my instructor to put me together with the cave environment.

I think I'm saying this badly . . . :whatever:

there SHOULD be a barrier. cave diving is no place for nickel rocketry. no matter what a financially motivated and biased instructor tells you.

might be a good idea to find out how many bodies the prospective instructor has on him/her before choosing as well...

 

[ianr33]

:lol: Well, as I understand it, all agencies allow the bests tools now. However, I agree with your reasoning. That's why I did my classes first, too.

While they may allow it (don't know) the NACD does not exactly promote the use of doubles for intro
<<

Intro to Cave Diving ​

The Introduction to Cave Diving course is taught in a minimum of two days and includes and a minimum of four single tank cave dives. This course is designed to help hone those skills previously learned in cavern. New skills and procedures are taught which are needed for limited single tank cave penetration.

Purpose: To develop a cave diving proficiency within limitations of a single tank. It is for the diver who does not wish the burden of double tanks or is not interested in cave exploration and long decompression dives. It is recreational cave diving course. The course develops and establishes minimum skills, knowledge, dive planning abilities, problem solving procedures and the basic abilities necessary to safely cave dive using single cylinders.

Prerequisites: NACD cavern diver of equivalent and a minimum of 25 logged non-training dives.

Minimum Equipment: All equipment required for cavern, 71.2 cu. ft. tank with dual orifice, primary reel with 400? of guideline, safety reel, additional first stage with a minimum five foot hose, line markers, clothes pins and an additional light for a total of three.>>

From NACD Training

Minimum 25 logged non training dives.

 

[Jax]

All that is the MINIMUM. Doesn't make it the best. Instructors can add their own requirements, if the market will bear it.

I submit it is the instructors' job to explain the risks and espouse the virtues of redundant equipment.

Cave diving is a low density sport. The less you have entering the sport, the more those in the sport have to pay to attract the manufacturers to research, design, and implement cave diving equipment.

Attract the student with minimal costs, then once they are addicted, hit them up with the rest of the costs. It's a tried and true marketing ploy since the dawn of time.

 

[Jax]

might be a good idea to find out how many bodies the prospective instructor has on him/her before choosing as well...

I don't understand.

 

[PfcAJ]

Sigh, much to learn you still have, yet so sure of your opinions.