NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

[gcarter]

Then I guess I wasn't clear. *I* personally would not dive a single in a cavern/cave. I understand why the agencies allow it. I support the agencies' decision because I think they know their business better than I.

I do not believe a cave diver has to be devoted and seek out the best. I believe all should do their best, understand their limitations, and stay within them.

no you're right. mediocrity is what you want to strive for. if you found an instructor that will accept it then you two will make quite the team.

IMO you are showing a bias that is not allowing you to comprehend her position.

There is a difference between trying to be THE best and trying to be YOUR best. Not being type-A competitive and elitist is not the same as striving for mediocrity.

 

[Jax]

If you haven't noticed, almost all the cave deaths are in 'tourist caves' on somewhat heavily traveled areas. There are a few oddballs, of course, but they are few.

Cutting corners, quick fixes, and general slackassery so not mix well with cave diving. This is a very unforgiving activity where simple mistakes can land you in a pine box. Its not all fun and games. You can have fun doing it (and I do almost every dive), but it must be taken seriously. If you are not willing to devote some serious time to bettering yourself (to include inwater skills, dive planning, and sharpening your mental focus) I'd look elsewhere.

I'm seeing a pattern here.

You guys seem to equate "Not Perfection" with "Cutting corners, quick fixes, and general slackassery". Black or white.

So, if Edd Sorensen is the "Perfection", what does that make you?

I think you guys miss the shades of gray that exist. A person can be an excellent cave diver, yet choose not to drag themselves through a 100' of major restriction. Some excellent cave divers choose to not dive Florida, for example, because they prefer the warm, shallower dives of Mexico. They are not lesser divers, just make different choices.

It's sad that you require such an extreme. There are many beautiful shades in the world.

 

[PfcAJ]

I think you should always be trying to get better. I try and get better on every dive (and often produce tangible results of said effort). While I respect Edd (and many other high caliber divers), he's not my hero. I see him as highly successful, and I strive to be as successful in my endeavors.

Stagnation is bad news. In fact, I recall a lady that passed at Peacock (just a tourist cave, ya?) who stagnated at the intro level for years. She made bad decisions (mostly corner cutting) and paid the ultimate price. I don't think we'll ever know why she didn't take Full Cave, but the result was tragic.

If you aren't getting better, what are you getting?

 

[Jax]

I think you should always be trying to get better. I try and get better on every dive (and often produce tangible results of said effort). While I respect Edd (and many other high caliber divers), he's not my hero. I see him as highly successful, and I strive to be as successful in my endeavors.

Stagnation is bad news. In fact, I recall a lady that passed at Peacock (just a tourist cave, ya?) who stagnated at the intro level for years. She made bad decisions (mostly corner cutting) and paid the ultimate price. I don't think we'll ever know why she didn't take Full Cave, but the result was tragic.

If you aren't getting better, what are you getting?

Now, that is a different question. I always seek better.

 

[LiteHedded]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

You guys seem to equate "Not Perfection" with "Cutting corners, quick fixes, and general slackassery". Black or white.

So, if Edd Sorensen is the "Perfection", what does that make you?

I think you guys miss the shades of gray that exist. A person can be an excellent cave diver, yet choose not to drag themselves through a 100' of major restriction. Some excellent cave divers choose to not dive Florida, for example, because they prefer the warm, shallower dives of Mexico. They are not lesser divers, just make different choices.

It's sad that you require such an extreme. There are many beautiful shades in the world.

what are you talking about? that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Jax, give it up. These guys have already formed their opinions and will never change, no matter how much you argue it. It's been an issue for years. Many others have tried unsuccessfully. For them there is only one way. They also make big assumptions on very little information. They've done quite a bit of that lately. They think they're better than everyone else. Let them live in their own little closed minded world.

 

[CaveMD]

Neither the NSS-CDS or the NACD have training that addresses dives below 130ft.

NSS-CDS Training Programs | National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section
Deep Cave Diver

The purpose of the Deep Cave Diver course is to provide the Cave Diver training for the safe planning and execution of mixed gas diving in caves to depths not exceeding three hundred (300) fsw/ninety (90) msw. The diver will be introduced to the proper and safe use of helium as a breathing gas, along with oxygen and nitrox for staged decompression. This course will emphasize precision and accuracy in all aspects of the dive beginning with advanced pre-dive planning. Safety will be a primary focus of this course due to the depths to which dives will be made.

 

[cavemn]

Jax, give it up. These guys have already formed their opinions and will never change, no matter how much you argue it. It's been an issue for years. Many others have tried unsuccessfully. For them there is only one way. They also make big assumptions on very little information. They've done quite a bit of that lately. They think they're better than everyone else. Let them live in their own little closed minded world.

Not true for me. I'm not DIR or UTD minded. I see more than one correct path in most situations. I use the best equipment in the same category to do the dive(eg. buying new side mount tanks vs. used) If I don't have the equipment I don't do the dive(eg. CCR). Singles vs. doubles is comparing apples to oranges IMHO

 

[LiteHedded]

Jax, give it up. These guys have already formed their opinions and will never change, no matter how much you argue it. It's been an issue for years. Many others have tried unsuccessfully. For them there is only one way. They also make big assumptions on very little information. They've done quite a bit of that lately. They think they're better than everyone else. Let them live in their own little closed minded world.

it has nothing to do with gue. all of my cave and tech training is through IANTD. same guy that did your trimix class a couple years back i believe.

it's about 'good enough' and 'do it on the cheap' attitudes and her pontificating about cave diving in every cave diving and fatality thread in existence. i've recovered better divers than her and maybe I take it a little more seriously because of that.

 

[Jax]

Sorry you think that way, LiteHedded. I seek understanding of differing views. I do not, however, believe in rigidity of thought.

I am not trying to convince anyone of *my* point of view, only to understand why the current requirements are not sufficient in your view.

I sense that you think that this discourse is "challenging" you, because I ask you to explain.

Y'all have, however, attributed extreme attitudes on me ["good enough" and "on the cheap"] when none of that is true. Since I cannot seem to express myself well enough, I guess I'll 'give it up' as recommended.

Many thanks to those of you who took the time to enhance my understanding by explaining the logic and reasoning behind the requirements and standard!