NACD Instructor standards violation

[Jack Hammer]

Tbone, have u been to eagles nest?

I'll repeat the question, and I ask it sincerely. Tbone have you been to Eagles Nest? [emoji2]

 

[tbone1004]

as stated after AJ asked, yes I have been there once, in a similar dive in question to see the "cavern". It will be a long time before I do any real penetration there due to lack of ccr at the moment.

Regardless of whether I have been there once or a hundred times, the fact still remains that it is not our decision. This is a good discussion to have because the cave instructors in the high springs areas have almost no place to teach AN/DP to non-full cave divers due to changing conditions and a very long boat ride to get out to deep enough open water.

CDS has made it abundantly clear of their position on the matter
Statement from the NSS-CDS Training Committee on Eagles' Nest | National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section

good for them, I applaud their decision in defining that as a parameter, if the instructor in question was a CDS instructor I'm sure he would have gone through the appropriate channels to get approval. If denied, he would have sought alternative routes. As it stands, he is not, so their opinion on the matter is irrelevant to the discussion.

Look, we have to separate instances.
Instance 1, instructor is certified to teach though IANTD, SDI-TDI, NACD, NSS-CDS, PADI/DSAT. Those agencies get to choose what is a standards violation when he is teaching. NAUI and GUE can't butt in on this.

Instance 2, instructor certified through PSAI, TDI, IANTD, NAUI. NSS-CDS, and NACD don't get to decide what he can and can not do unless he is in one of the CDS caves, which he can't be because he isn't a CDS instructor. Class in question is TDI, TDI granted a waiver, if NAUI doesn't like it, NAUI gets to weigh in, same with PSAI, and IANTD. TDI has already ruled this as OK under these circumstances, and unless you sit on a board/committee for one of the above agencies, or manage the cave system in question, you don't get to decide what is right or wrong. I don't get to decide what is right or wrong. In this case under those circumstances, I agree with TDI's decision to grant a waiver. I know most of the other agencies would disagree and I can see exactly why, but if you review why Eagles Nest doesn't have a "Cavern" it stems quite a bit from the depth, which is because the top of the mound violates the depth+penetration rule for most agencies cavern standards. If TDI granted a waiver, they granted the waiver, if you have an issue, there is literally nobody else to take it up with other than the person that granted that waiver.

Speculation on both parts as this hasn't been formally published by the agencies, but those are the scenarios being discussed

 

[LiteHedded]

as stated after AJ asked, yes I have been there once, in a similar dive in question to see the "cavern". It will be a long time before I do any real penetration there due to lack of ccr at the moment.

Regardless of whether I have been there once or a hundred times, the fact still remains that it is not our decision. This is a good discussion to have because the cave instructors in the high springs areas have almost no place to teach AN/DP to non-full cave divers due to changing conditions and a very long boat ride to get out to deep enough open water.

CDS has made it abundantly clear of their position on the matter
Statement from the NSS-CDS Training Committee on Eagles' Nest | National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section

good for them, I applaud their decision in defining that as a parameter, if the instructor in question was a CDS instructor I'm sure he would have gone through the appropriate channels to get approval. If denied, he would have sought alternative routes. As it stands, he is not, so their opinion on the matter is irrelevant to the discussion.

Look, we have to separate instances.
Instance 1, Rob Neto. He is certified to teach though IANTD, SDI-TDI, NACD, NSS-CDS, PADI/DSAT. Those agencies get to choose what is a standards violation when he is teaching. NAUI and GUE can't butt in on this.

Instance 2, Michal Turek, certified through PSAI, TDI, IANTD, NAUI. NSS-CDS, and NACD don't get to decide what he can and can not do unless he is in one of the CDS caves, which he can't be because he isn't a CDS instructor. Class in question is TDI, TDI granted a waiver, if NAUI doesn't like it, NAUI gets to weigh in, same with PSAI, and IANTD. TDI has already ruled this as OK under these circumstances, and unless you sit on a board/committee for one of the above agencies, or manage the cave system in question, you don't get to decide what is right or wrong. I don't get to decide what is right or wrong. In this case under those circumstances, I agree with TDI's decision to grant a waiver. I know most of the other agencies would disagree and I can see exactly why, but if you review why Eagles Nest doesn't have a "Cavern" it stems quite a bit from the depth, which is because the top of the mound violates the depth+penetration rule for most agencies cavern standards. If TDI granted a waiver, they granted the waiver, if you have an issue, there is literally nobody else to take it up with other than the person that granted that waiver.

I did my hypoxic trimix class out of a shop in high springs. we took a boat to deep water. it can be done. what you're saying is it's too much of a hassle and instructors would be leaving money on the table.
good enough reason for the instructor in the OP apparently. but it shouldn't be good enough for these agencies.

 

[Jack Hammer]

For profit agencies will allow what makes them the most profit. Tbone, Since you have been there you may recall the entrance is a restriction that does not allow two divers to swim side by side. That alone makes it not allowable for cavern. Anyway someone spins it, it is still an overhead and not like some basins or just a hole (tube shape from top to bottom implied). That means it is not OK for OW divers. It is beyond the depth restrictions of intro. That leaves full cave.

Hudson Grotto is relatively near to the Nest and deep enough for an/dp. It is not difficult to get to ~140'. It is a better option.

 

[tbone1004]

Fair regarding the restriction, and I agree on the overhead, and I certainly wouldn't condone teaching AN/DP in there, but was explaining what TDI's rationale likely was when the waiver was granted.

Fair regarding Hudson, I forgot it got below 120, though 120 is still plenty deep for AN/DP. I completely forgot Hudson existed, and even if it was only 110, it beats the heck out of that 4 mile drive with the mass amounts of Florida's state bird...

 

[kensuf]

Regardless of whether I have been there once or a hundred times, the fact still remains that it is not our decision. This is a good discussion to have because the cave instructors in the high springs areas have almost no place to teach AN/DP to non-full cave divers due to changing conditions and a very long boat ride to get out to deep enough open water.

So, that's not entirely true. I've been able to get students to 130' in Hudson Grotto without too much difficulty. Last time I had a student there was three weeks ago, we were at 128', and for all intents and purposes, could have done a free ascent at any time.

How deep do you need to take your AN/DP students?

---------- Post added May 28th, 2015 at 04:03 PM ----------

For profit agencies will allow what makes them the most profit. Tbone, Since you have been there you may recall the entrance is a restriction that does not allow two divers to swim side by side. That alone makes it not allowable for cavern. Anyway someone spins it, it is still an overhead and not like some basins or just a hole (tube shape from top to bottom implied). That means it is not OK for OW divers. It is beyond the depth restrictions of intro. That leaves full cave.

Hudson Grotto is relatively near to the Nest and deep enough for an/dp. It is not difficult to get to ~140'. It is a better option.

140' is pushing it because you have to go through the little squeeze box hole. But 130' is easy peasy.

 

[tursiops]

AN (TDI) requires two dives deeper than 100 ft.

 

[karstdvr]

Regardless of whether I have been there once or a hundred times, the fact still remains that it is not our decision.

It is our decision. Not to sound redundant ,but we have to protect our sites, or lose them to lunacy and never complain. When I started cave diving we had access to Eagles Nest and then it was closed for a decade,but a very hard effort was undertaken by some very dedicated people who got it back, and they didn't get it back for training,but as a recreational site. We recently saw this site under threat of closure due to some open water divers who decided to do a dive there and didn't respect that this place is a cave,but the same group of people came to the rescue. So how can we protect this site from serious infraction of training rules eg someone looking for a convenient site for deep training but the student isn't full cave? If there is such a negative PR campaign by all the cave divers against the agencies that have this practice occurring unknowingly or knowingly,because we actively protect our sites,then you would see capitulation. Yes, this was done by the NACD against a shop that was actively taking divers there, and it worked. Eagles Nest is a cave, and probably has the highest body count of any cave in Florida, it isn't a line to a mound with a direct ascent to the surface, and it needs respect. What I don't understand is why the aversion to open water for deep. If the student is paying a lot of money for training and gas, having to pay a boat fee is not unreasonable,but if the student can't hack some adverse conditions like what is found in the ocean from time to time, should they even consider technical training. It is a pity that Ward Sink was closed by the family, this would be an ideal location for deep training since there is no overhead.

 

[Jack Hammer]

...

140' is pushing it because you have to go through the little squeeze box hole. But 130' is easy peasy.

Maybe levels vary. We were there in March and hit ~135' max with 5' or so below us. We looked but didn't go into the hole. I'll have to check my computers profile.

Sent via

 

[tbone1004]

Kelly, it is only our decision to voice our opinions to the training agencies that are condoning activities that we disagree with. As an individual diver I can't go and gripe to anyone about this other than TDI in this instance. Being remade aware of Hudson as a more appropriate site, then I will now voice my opinion to TDI this evening. Better solution would be bring issues like this to someone like the NFSA *while they are directed at Peacock and Troy, they would still be appropriate to go to* who is not a training agency and is able to have discussions with the training agencies about why this should be explicitly against the rules.

The real problem with the incident in question is why TDI granted the waiver and whether it should have been granted or not. If you agree with it, then smile and be happy, if you don't agree with it, take it up with TDI. I'm sure Jim Wyatt has with his post on the CDS website, and maybe we will hear about it later. Maybe not.