NACD Instructor standards violation

[Hetland]

What I don't understand is why the aversion to open water for deep. If the student is paying a lot of money for training and gas, having to pay a boat fee is not unreasonable,but if the student can't hack some adverse conditions like what is found in the ocean from time to time, should they even consider technical training. It is a pity that Ward Sink was closed by the family, this would be an ideal location for deep training since there is no overhead.

+∞

I don't consider a straight descent down and back up a line in order to trip a depth indication on a dive computer a training dive.

 

[PfcAJ]

What I don't understand is why the aversion to open water for deep. If the student is paying a lot of money for training and gas, having to pay a boat fee is not unreasonable,but if the student can't hack some adverse conditions like what is found in the ocean from time to time, should they even consider technical training. It is a pity that Ward Sink was closed by the family, this would be an ideal location for deep training since there is no overhead.

Its harder in the ocean than in a cave. The entire process is easier. Leisurely mornings, snack time at picnic benches, rocks to hold on to during deco, solid visual references, no need to shoot an SMB.

That said, their trimix certs should have an * denoting that their instructor really has no idea if they can do the stuff mid-water or not.

 

[billgraham]

Btw, I was agreeing that LOG is a horrible place for training.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

The NSS-CDS does have a program for training fully certified cave divers in the use of trimix in deep caves such as Eagles' Nest. We consider it entirely appropriate and an excellent class within the safe diving/teaching practices paradigm.

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1.1 Deep Cave Diver: Course Description and Standards

1.1.1 Purpose


The purpose of the Deep Cave Diver course is to provide the Cave Diver training for the safe planning and execution of mixed gas diving in caves to depths not exceeding three hundred (300) fsw/ninety (90) msw. The diver will be introduced to the proper and safe use of helium as a breathing gas, along with oxygen and nitrox for staged decompression. This course will emphasize precision and accuracy in all aspects of the dive beginning with advanced pre-dive planning. Safety will be a primary focus of this course due to the depths to which dives will be made.
1.1.2 Course Duration

Course duration shall be a minimum of four (4) days.
1.1.3 Prerequisites

A. Minimum of twenty-one (21) years of age.
B. NSS-CDS Cave Diver or the equivalent.
C. Minimum of fifty (50) logged non-training cave dives after completion of Cave Diver.
D. Must be trimix certified from a recognized training agency or taking this course in conjunction with a trimix course.

 

[tbone1004]

no decompression programs though correct?

 

[GDI]

As I stated in a solo thread recently, safe is not up to peers to decide, safety during training is the risk tolerance of the:
1. Instructor
2. Training Agency
3. Insurance company........

there is a forth element _ The Student. As a point the NACD neither supports nor condemns solo diving it's a personal choice

From the NACD Manual
"The NACD does not condone or disapprove of Solo diving. The NACD believes that
individuals have the right to make decisions to dive in the manner that they choose as
long as it does not endanger other divers or the environment. We believe that there are
many ways to dive safely. We believe in the freedom to make decisions regarding your
own well being."

---------- Post added May 28th, 2015 at 10:32 PM ----------

Its harder in the ocean than in a cave. The entire process is easier. Leisurely mornings, snack time at picnic benches, rocks to hold on to during deco, solid visual references, no need to shoot an SMB.

That said, their trimix certs should have an * denoting that their instructor really has no idea if they can do the stuff mid-water or not.

When is the last time you made dives in the many sink holes out in the Gulf of Mexico? Just a comment no insult intended.

---------- Post added May 28th, 2015 at 10:41 PM ----------

The NSS-CDS S&P's have a detailed section on instructor ethics that discusses safe and professional teaching diving practices. You will note that it states in all instructional...

Instructors for the NSS-CDS agree upfront to adhere to these standards and safe diving practices.

It is my hope that other training agencies make additions to their S&P's ethics section to include a section like this.

1.1 NSS-CDS Ethics Policies and Procedures

1.1.1 Ethical Standards for Instructors

A. Every NSS-CDS instructor shall adhere strictly to all NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards and safe and professional teaching practices in all instructional and guided cavern and cave dives.

B. No NSS-CDS instructor shall participate in any activity, or accept any benefit, that creates a personal conflict of interest with implementing safe and effective NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards or safe and professional teaching practices.

D. No instructor shall disclose confidential NSS-CDS business information provided, however, that NSS-CDS instructors shall disclose in an appropriate forum all information required by law or permitted by law in an appropriate official session of the NSS-CDS Training Committee or the NSS-CDS Board of Directors; and provided further that NSS-CDS instructors shall promptly report to the Training Committee Chairman any known or observed violation of NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards or safe and professional teaching practices by another NSS-CDS instructor

I was asked what the NACD Ethics State, so here they are:

ETHICAL STANDARDS


1. Members shall at all times uphold the STANDARDS AND PROCEDURES as set forth by the NACD.
2. Members shall support the NACD programs and shall not disparage the NACD organization or its members in good standing.
3. Members shall conduct themselves and their courses in a professional manner and shall not disparage other diving professionals or organizations.
4. Members shall evidence common honesty and courtesy in dealing with all NACD activities.
5. Members shall report, in writing, to the Quality Assurance Committee any violations of NACD standards that have been personally observed.
6. Members shall cooperate during official inquiries and investigations (in ethics matters) and fully and promptly respond to inquiries from the ethics committee.
7. Only NACD instructors who are in teaching status shall represent themselves as being capable of issuing NACD certifications. Misrepresentations by previous members, non-members, or current members (in a non-teaching status) shall be grounds for legal action by the NACD.
8. Members shall comply with the intent of NACD Standard Safe Cavern and Cave Diving Practice Statement of Understanding while in a teaching or supervising capacity.
9. Promoting students to undertake diver training in the overhead environment is a violation of NACD ethical standards.
10. Instructors will abide by all site regulations of private, county, state and federal facilities while conducting NACD training programs.


THE NACD HAS THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO TERMINATE MEMBERSHIP IN THE ASSOCIATION BASED UPON THE DETERMINATION THAT A VIOLATION OF ANY OF THE ELEMENTS IN THE PUBLISHED STANDARDS HAS OCCURRED.

NACD Standards & Procedures 5

General Standards

NACD INSTRUCTOR CODE OF ETHICS

o Each NACD Instructor shall maintain an attitude of professionalism and objectivity and support the concept of safety in cavern and cave diving.
o Each NACD Instructor will refrain from encouraging or recruiting individuals to cavern or cave dive if unqualified to do so.
o Each NACD Instructor will make every effort to pass on their knowledge to novice cavern and cave divers and the diving community if requested to do so, whether through formal instruction, answering questions or via appropriate publication in books, journals and magazines.
o Each NACD Instructor recognizes that they have access to a unique and fragile underwater environment and shall encourage and practice an awareness of conservation of this environment at all times.
o Each NACD Instructor, by virtue of voluntary membership in NACD, recognizes a responsibility and obligation to promote NACD and support the official decisions and policies adopted by NACD. In fulfilling this obligation to the organization, the NACD

Instructors shall:

o Each NACD Instructor has an obligation to report violations of NACD’s Code of Ethics.
o Each NACD Instructor should strive to set an example of professional behavior and ethical conduct in all activities including public speaking, articles and books and various forms of Internet style discourse.
o Unwarranted critical comment and deliberate inflammatory statements of diving peers is inappropriate and undesirable.
o Each NACD Instructor shall refrain from encouraging or recruiting others to dive beyond present limitations of training and experience.
o Each NACD instructor shall refrain from making any public comment which, in any manner, endorses or encourages the violation of limitations of training or minimizes the need for training. Each NACD instructor is expected to fully support the absolute necessity for training and the strict adherence to NACD diver limitations. As used in this policy statement, the term "public comment" shall include, but not be limited to, those made in publications, Internet forums and all other media of mass distribution.
o Violation of these provisions shall result in appropriate disciplinary action by the NACD Training Director against the instructor in violation of any Section of this Code of Ethics.

 

[Wookie]

there is a forth element _ The Student. As a point the NACD neither supports nor condemns solo diving it's a personal choice.

This thread has nothing to do with solo, it was an example. The student isn't wise enough to decide their own safety, they are students. By definition, student dives are trust me dives, with the student following the instructor, learning skills, learning safety as they go. The student is only minimally responsible for their own safety, and don't possess the tools to determine risk.

 

[PfcAJ]

When is the last time you made dives in the many sink holes out in the Gulf of Mexico? Just a comment no insult intended. .

I haven't. I'd like to though, esp with high helium gases and rebreathers I got an invite to go out to Naples sink then I blew out my ACL and had to sideline that, unfortunately.

I noticed my mid-water skills deteriorating a bit so I've been making a point to go down to south Florida for some technical wreck diving, actually. Gotta sharpen the knife every once in a while!

 

[Redshift]

Cave or wreck courses train divers for an environment, rebreather, DPV... train divers in the use of certain equipment, to which can also be added the specific environment, with several agencies offering courses for. Trimix training is more focused on the skills needed to achieve a certain depth, but does not take into account environment. There isn't cave trimix and OW trimix. It will be up to the diver to know what they are capable of and acquire the skills necessary for the dives they intend to do. I think agencies and instructors should recognize that since a trimix card is more universal, they should offer a varied training to prepare the divers both for cave and OW. In fact, at least in TDI standards there is a need to send up DSMB, perform deco mid water...Yes, some training may not be locally available. And so what? People even travel to other countries for training very frequently. There are worse countries in terms of diving that the USA

 

[karstdvr]

. As an individual diver I can't go and gripe to anyone about this other than TDI in this instance.

I understand the frustration,but I contend there are quite a few avenues to gripe to. You mentioned the training agency, and of course if unsafe practice is occurring in a cave, the NACD and CDS would have an interest. But there is a huge tool out there, and that is social media eg forums and Facebook, and something mentioned on many media sources will have a reaction. This thread alone has elicited a response, not through posting,but awareness,from some people who I know stay away from forums. Now here is where the problem lies, if you see instructor X taking a cavern diver to the bottom of Eagles Nest for deep air class (for example), and you post this on the forums and Facebook, you will be the bad guy. Even though you did the correct thing and protected a site, and protected a student from being led into an area beyond their ability to handle an emergency, you will still be the bad guy. Being the bad guy is tough, I did it once, and got rebuked by that person's cohorts. I don't ever regret it, sleep good an night knowing I did the right thing, and will do it again without even pausing to think about it. It isn't our responsibility to solve the world's problems,but we have seen thread after thread of complaints by people regarding poor training, poor divers etc and how much we dislike it,but we tend to lay prostrate on the ground and say there is nothing I can do,even though we witness it everyday. As a society I understand how it is more comfortable to not get involved, and mind my own business etc. I know of two cave diving accidents where people witnessed this(these) individual(s) doing wreckless things that were dangerous before their accident. The people who witnessed it just kept to themselves ,chosing to mind my own business, and an accident resulted in fatalities. How can you live with yourself seeing something that is obviously dangerous and just ignoring it,then these people die. I would rather tell the person, be told F-you by them, and then they off themselves,because I did try to intervene. I will give the dry caving world a lot of credit, their members will intervene in situations, and actively protect their sites. Maybe it is time as a community to stop sitting on the fence.