NACD Instructor standards violation

[karstdvr]

This thread is on a good roll and shockingly mostly on topic, lets not derail it with personal BS. Maybe the two of you might want to consider taking this to PM.

I agree,this needs to be carried somewhere else.

I have heard people say they abhor cave politics, but really what is the source of cave politics? There are many sources, but factionalization caused by the cave divers propagates it. I like this shop but can't like this shop, I like this instructor, but not this instructor, I like this agency, but not this agency etc etc. Yeah there are problems, this isn't Disney World,but open bashing where people are tuning into the drama is not a cogent discussion,but gets filed under the category of cave politics.

 

[billgraham]

I'm not an instructor or a cave diving guru, just a tourist cave diver. The issue with the trimix and advanced nitrox/decompression procedures classes has always been that it's damned near impossible to do the dives on a boat in any reasonable time period, and very expensive if you can get out there. I don't know what the story is with 40 fathom grotto now, but I remember that instructors and students hated the entrance fees. I've never been to Eagle's Nest so I can't comment on that one. It seems to me that this problem is an old one and its driven by instructors and students needing to find sites where they can hit a certain depth that are close by and inexpensive. I watched the vid at post #80 and have done the dive myself on tri mix and it's pretty scary stuff, I think most of us non-heroes would agree on that.

 

[LiteHedded]

I'm not an instructor or a cave diving guru, just a tourist cave diver. The issue with the trimix and advanced nitrox/decompression procedures classes has always been that it's damned near impossible to do the dives on a boat in any reasonable time period, and very expensive if you can get out there. I don't know what the story is with 40 fathom grotto now, but I remember that instructors and students hated the entrance fees. I've never been to Eagle's Nest so I can't comment on that one. It seems to me that this problem is an old one and its driven by instructors and students needing to find sites where they can hit a certain depth that are close by and inexpensive. I watched the vid at post #80 and have done the dive myself on tri mix and it's pretty scary stuff, I think most of us non-heroes would agree on that.

i think everyone can see that peacock is cheaper and that's why he took students there (allegedly)

the problem is that it's not a good enough reason. if you want to do it there get full cave first. teachers (training directors) can't let the students dictate what classes they teach just for a quick cash grab

 

[billgraham]

i think everyone can see that peacock is cheaper and that's why he took students there (allegedly)

the problem is that it's not a good enough reason. if you want to do it there get full cave first. teachers (training directors) can't let the students dictate what classes they teach just for a quick cash grab

I don't teach so I hesitate to make any conclusion but it's deep, scary and silty and seems to me to be ill suited to be a training site for anything other than an advanced sidemount cave trimix siltout course, which doesn't exist.

 

[GDI]

Are you serious? TDI granted (even verbally) the right to teach cavern at EN? I'm on awful internet or I'd lookup their email and forward this to them for validation.

This statement was their validation, from TDI training direct:

TDI allows Open Water courses (such as Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures, trimix, etc.) in an overhead as long as the site is within the student’s current level of overhead certification.

Because standards and course flow varies greatly between agencies, TDI does not open quality assurance investigations regarding TDI standards violations against members who are conducting courses under another agency.

 

[dreamdive]

I'm not an instructor or a cave diving guru, just a tourist cave diver. The issue with the trimix and advanced nitrox/decompression procedures classes has always been that it's damned near impossible to do the dives on a boat in any reasonable time period, and very expensive if you can get out there. I don't know what the story is with 40 fathom grotto now, but I remember that instructors and students hated the entrance fees. I've never been to Eagle's Nest so I can't comment on that one. It seems to me that this problem is an old one and its driven by instructors and students needing to find sites where they can hit a certain depth that are close by and inexpensive. I watched the vid at post #80 and have done the dive myself on tri mix and it's pretty scary stuff, I think most of us non-heroes would agree on that.

Inconvenience should not be an excuse for unsafe!

 

[tbone1004]

definition of unsafe though. If the classes are being taught in the nest but there is no "penetration" as far as into the cave itself, just used as a glorified anchor line coming down to the mound where the diver is still provided essentially a straight shot up to the surface, is that more or less unsafe than trying to go out on a boat where the diver is inexperienced with rough seas and constantly changing conditions?

Is Eagles Nest more predictable than the ocean? Yes
Is it more dangerous than the ocean? Maybe, but if it is only being used as reliable access to 130' with easy conditions, I truly believe that it is safer than doing it in the ocean. Is this a dangerous cave? hell yeah, is a dive profile where you descent to the mount to hit 130', stay there for 10 minutes with direct access to the surface during the day with a full cave instructor really that dangerous? Not in my opinion. I think this would be a very different discussion if it was a different cave that was less "scary".

 

[Jack Hammer]

definition of unsafe though. If the classes are being taught in the nest but there is no "penetration" as far as into the cave itself, just used as a glorified anchor line coming down to the mound where the diver is still provided essentially a straight shot up to the surface, is that more or less unsafe than trying to go out on a boat where the diver is inexperienced with rough seas and constantly changing conditions?

Is Eagles Nest more predictable than the ocean? Yes
Is it more dangerous than the ocean? Maybe, but if it is only being used as reliable access to 130' with easy conditions, I truly believe that it is safer than doing it in the ocean. Is this a dangerous cave? hell yeah, is a dive profile where you descent to the mount to hit 130', stay there for 10 minutes with direct access to the surface during the day with a full cave instructor really that dangerous? Not in my opinion. I think this would be a very different discussion if it was a different cave that was less "scary".

Where do you come up with this stuff?

EN is much more dangerous than open water. The mound is in the cave. I don't know of any classes, especially technical classes where one holds the line the entire time. Doing skills is an easy way to lose sight of that ”glorified anchor line” with no direct access to the surface, just an extremely large area of rock overhead with a small single file hole in it.

 

[Wookie]

definition of unsafe though. If the classes are being taught in the nest but there is no "penetration" as far as into the cave itself, just used as a glorified anchor line coming down to the mound where the diver is still provided essentially a straight shot up to the surface, is that more or less unsafe than trying to go out on a boat where the diver is inexperienced with rough seas and constantly changing conditions?

Is Eagles Nest more predictable than the ocean? Yes
Is it more dangerous than the ocean? Maybe, but if it is only being used as reliable access to 130' with easy conditions, I truly believe that it is safer than doing it in the ocean. Is this a dangerous cave? hell yeah, is a dive profile where you descent to the mount to hit 130', stay there for 10 minutes with direct access to the surface during the day with a full cave instructor really that dangerous? Not in my opinion. I think this would be a very different discussion if it was a different cave that was less "scary".

As I stated in a solo thread recently, safe is not up to peers to decide, safety during training is the risk tolerance of the:
1. Instructor
2. Training Agency
3. Insurance company

If the instructor thinks it's too risky, with knowledge of the student, their capabilities, site, and potential for bad things to happen with the site, they will obviously choose to change something in the equation, namely, the student or the site.

As Jim has pointed out, the agency certainly has the right to declare certain activities as too risky. TDI will issue a waiver to certain instructors or teams to perform OW dives at EN for training. That may be too risky for NACD or NSS-CDS to condone, but really? Calling an instructor out who has the waiver and understands the risk?

The insurance company certainly has a say. We offer solo diving because our insurance company has said it's OK within certain limits. But oh, holy cow, lots of folks dive solo without a card. It's within their personal tolerance for risk.

When my wife took her full cave course back in the stone age, her instructor discussed solo cave diving. He did not condone or condemn solo cave diving, he outlined the risks and told each student that acceptance of those risks was up to them. She doesn't solo cave dive, but she is not morally opposed to it either.

So really, a bunch of yahoos getting on here and berating someone for having more tolerance for risk is a lot like berating someone for driving faster than they would. It's BS, and has no place. If you want to change the rules, by all means, do so by doing what NSS-CDS did, spell them out and follow them. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of useless noise.

 

[tbone1004]

ok, so unpredictable conditions in the ocean are more dangerous than hole going to calm open water? You're not holding the line, but it is there the same as the anchor line would be in the ocean. No currents, no unexpected waves, no bucking boats etc etc. For an AN/DP class with mandatory decompression you have a hard ceiling whether it is a big rock or an imaginary ceiling due to decompression. If you're in the Nest to that point with an instructor that knows the area, and are only going straight down that line to the mount, hanging out for 10 minutes and coming back up, it's not that bad. Teaching trimix to a non cave diver would be a little different, but for AN/DP where it is just straight down and straight up, it's just a deep hole. It leads to one of the most dangerous caves in the world, but for this dive profile if they lose sight of the line, they shouldn't be in that an/dp class anyway.... You can shoot a DSMB straight to the surface from where these guys are going.....

TDI has chosen to agree with the instructor, I agree with the instructor. My opinion doesn't matter, but I was explaining the rationale that TDI would have taken when evaluating this request. If the other agencies think it's unsafe, it is up to them to let the instructor know and choose to do with it what they will. I think this is an OK decision as long as the agency is issuing waivers to do it. Requirements, instructor knows the Nest well, he signs off on the students being able to handle that dive, and it is on a per case basis. Don't go willy nilly condoning AN/DP training in the Nest, but if an instructor has good reasons to request permission to train there under these circumstances, and the agency grants it, who are we to say that it is wrong? I don't run a training agency, nor do most of the people on here. PADI has no say in this because they don't have a cave program, NACD and CDS are gray because they don't have AN/DP training, but they do cave training, so they should at least be informed, IANTD, TDI, and PSAI are the ones that matter most because they offer both training sections, if one or all of them say it is OK, then who are we to say it isn't?