NACD Instructor standards violation

[victorzamora]

Correct you do not need a licence to scuba dive, no one does. Crossing agencies when teaching would be a agency's concern. Within the same agency however one course to another still has implications. TDI's response is as such:

TDI allows Open Water courses (such as Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures, trimix, etc.) in an overhead as long as the site is within the student’s current level of overhead certification.

Because standards and course flow varies greatly between agencies, TDI does not open quality assurance investigations regarding TDI standards violations against members who are conducting courses under another agency.

This is about safe diving practices. In the case of what you stated above it is an unsafe diving practice. The instructor, while he may be teaching that class through another agency and may well have been granted a waiver to do so (and we know that no agency would grant such a waiver) the instructor is not within the realm of safe diving practices.

If that instructor happens to also be an instructor for the NSS-CDS we will look at the fact that he is not teaching a safe class. That instructor always, always represents the NSS-CDS. The NSS-CDS will look at this by beginning a QA inquiry and consider whether or not the class was a safe class to be conducting. In your example Frank it is clear to me that this class is dangerous and should never be conducted.

It becomes a judgment call, it becomes a consideration of prudence. It becomes a case of "would a prudent NSS-CDS instructor teach such a class". I will go out on a limb here and state unequivocally that no NSS-CDS instructor would conduct this class under any circumstance. If, however an instructor from the NSS-CDS succumbed to some pressure to conduct this class that instructor would be sanctioned and removed as an NSS-CDS instructor.

I hope this helps you better understand our focus and intent. I also hope you will think about this prudently and come to the same conclusion.

So, the picture being painted by bamafan is the following: An instructor gets a waiver from a training agency (the agency issuing the cert and handling the course) for special circumstances. The people issuing the waiver are cave divers and Trimix and familiar with intricacies involved. After the pre-planning, getting a waiver, holding to limits issued under the waiver for the class, and then performing the class in a safe and controlled manner....two agencies that this instructors isn't a part of are condemning him?? I'm sorry, I've been very pro this movement to actually hold people to standards.....but this is a bit of a stretch, guys.

 

[bamafan]

So, the picture being painted by bamafan is the following: An instructor gets a waiver from a training agency (the agency issuing the cert and handling the course) for special circumstances. The people issuing the waiver are cave divers and Trimix and familiar with intricacies involved. After the pre-planning, getting a waiver, holding to limits issued under the waiver for the class, and then performing the class in a safe and controlled manner....two agencies that this instructors isn't a part of are condemning him?? I'm sorry, I've been very pro this movement to actually hold people to standards.....but this is a bit of a stretch, guys.

Victor you might want to call your instructor. Apparently he got verbal permission from TDI to do An / Dp training at Eagle's Nest and a few weeks ago he had a cavern student on top of the mound at Eagle's Nest doing drills. How is this appropriate? What is next him taking you scootering in a cave when he isn't a Dpv instructor? I think you have your story mixed up Victor. So what do you think PSAI ought to do in this situation with an instructor who took a cavern student in Eagle's Nest Victor?

 

[ucfdiver]

Victor you might want to call your instructor. Apparently he got verbal permission from TDI to do An / Dp training at Eagle's Nest and a few weeks ago he had a cavern student on top of the mound at Eagle's Nest doing drills. How is this appropriate? What is next him taking you scootering in a cave when he isn't a Dpv instructor? I think you have your story mixed up Victor. So what do you think PSAI ought to do in this situation with an instructor who took a cavern student in Eagle's Nest Victor?

Are you serious? TDI granted (even verbally) the right to teach cavern at EN? I'm on awful internet or I'd lookup their email and forward this to them for validation.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

The situation was discussed among the PSAI BoD today. If an incident occurs during a PSAI class or a formal complaint is filed with PSAI Global HQ then there is cause to open a quality control investigation. Without a class being a PSAI class and without an official complaint there is no cause for an official quality control investigation.

 

[karstdvr]

I'm wondering why it is necessary for an agency to try and control what an instructor does during the times when he/she is not acting as a representative of that agency... I can't think of any reason why this should be the case... does that have something to do with liability?

I don't think it is about control,but CDS and NACD were created for the purpose of safe caving practice,and as a member you are supporting this (hopefully as a cave diver you do). Open water divers are taught in entry level training don't enter the overhead, this is highly dangerous without the correct equipment and training. Cave instructors, be it whatever agency, understand the principles of safety with regard to caves, they have heard this in their own cavern class, and teach it to their students. So putting aside standards for different organizations, an instructor knows when they are exceeding limits, hence in reality they shouldn't have to be told don't take X level of diver into Hendleys, or X level of diver to EN-but apparently some should be told. Think of it this way, some municipalities have laws like it is illegal to jake brake in the city limits, others don't, or do you just show common sense and don't do it because of the disturbance it makes for others.

---------- Post added May 27th, 2015 at 05:30 AM ----------

Are you serious? TDI granted (even verbally) the right to teach cavern at EN? I'm on awful internet or I'd lookup their email and forward this to them for validation.

Wonder if this is one of the reasons of why TDI seems to be taking a blackeye from some things I have heard.

 

[bamafan]

Are you serious? TDI granted (even verbally) the right to teach cavern at EN? I'm on awful internet or I'd lookup their email and forward this to them for validation.

Specifically Joe Stellini is what I was told. Apparently he also said Meeting House was okay for training like this too.

---------- Post added May 27th, 2015 at 05:56 AM ----------

The situation was discussed among the PSAI BoD today. If an incident occurs during a PSAI class or a formal complaint is filed with PSAI Global HQ then there is cause to open a quality control investigation. Without a class being a PSAI class and without an official complaint there is no cause for an official quality control investigation.

Why am I not surprised given the shop involved in this incident and who is on the board?

Edd Sorenson Newest PSAI Board Member

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

The NSS-CDS S&P's have a detailed section on instructor ethics that discusses safe and professional teaching diving practices. You will note that it states in all instructional...

Instructors for the NSS-CDS agree upfront to adhere to these standards and safe diving practices.

It is my hope that other training agencies make additions to their S&P's ethics section to include a section like this.

1.1 NSS-CDS Ethics Policies and Procedures

1.1.1 Ethical Standards for Instructors

A. Every NSS-CDS instructor shall adhere strictly to all NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards and safe and professional teaching practices in all instructional and guided cavern and cave dives.

B. No NSS-CDS instructor shall participate in any activity, or accept any benefit, that creates a personal conflict of interest with implementing safe and effective NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards or safe and professional teaching practices.

D. No instructor shall disclose confidential NSS-CDS business information provided, however, that NSS-CDS instructors shall disclose in an appropriate forum all information required by law or permitted by law in an appropriate official session of the NSS-CDS Training Committee or the NSS-CDS Board of Directors; and provided further that NSS-CDS instructors shall promptly report to the Training Committee Chairman any known or observed violation of NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards or safe and professional teaching practices by another NSS-CDS instructor

 

[Wookie]

The NSS-CDS S&P's have a detailed section on instructor ethics that discusses safe and professional teaching diving practices. You will note that it states in all instructional...

Instructors for the NSS-CDS agree upfront to adhere to these standards and safe diving practices.

It is my hope that other training agencies make additions to their S&P's ethics section to include a section like this.

1.1 NSS-CDS Ethics Policies and Procedures

1.1.1 Ethical Standards for Instructors

A. Every NSS-CDS instructor shall adhere strictly to all NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards and safe and professional teaching practices in all instructional and guided cavern and cave dives.

B. No NSS-CDS instructor shall participate in any activity, or accept any benefit, that creates a personal conflict of interest with implementing safe and effective NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards or safe and professional teaching practices.

D. No instructor shall disclose confidential NSS-CDS business information provided, however, that NSS-CDS instructors shall disclose in an appropriate forum all information required by law or permitted by law in an appropriate official session of the NSS-CDS Training Committee or the NSS-CDS Board of Directors; and provided further that NSS-CDS instructors shall promptly report to the Training Committee Chairman any known or observed violation of NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures, NSS-CDS Ethical Standards or safe and professional teaching practices by another NSS-CDS instructor

Cool. I think that carefully spells out the CDS stand on the issue, and that there is little ambiguity there, although some might interpret that to mean "In a NSS-CDS teaching or guided cave diving situation", I think paragraph B pretty much solves that issue.

Nice.

 

[karstdvr]

It is my hope that other training agencies make additions to their S&P's ethics section to include a section like this.

I agree, thanks for your post.

 

[victorzamora]

Victor you might want to call your instructor. Apparently he got verbal permission from TDI to do An / Dp training at Eagle's Nest and a few weeks ago he had a cavern student on top of the mound at Eagle's Nest doing drills. How is this appropriate? What is next him taking you scootering in a cave when he isn't a Dpv instructor? I think you have your story mixed up Victor. So what do you think PSAI ought to do in this situation with an instructor who took a cavern student in Eagle's Nest Victor?

My scooter dive? Yeah, how dare I rent a scooter!?! Last I checked, DPV certs aren't required. I was trying to figure out which one I wanted to buy, Michal did as well. We piddled around to the first T of JB with a couple scooters, with him and I trading off scooters to see which ones we liked and comparing thrust and torque. That's a huge sin, Eric, you're right. He wasn't there as an instructor, but as a fellow diver....so his DPV Instructor status means nothing, right?

As far as its appropriateness, I'm pretty sure you have half a story and zero authority to decide what is and what isn't allowed. Also, this thread is about the resignation of 3 members of the NACD and the suspension of Rob for undisclosed reasons. BabyDuck mentioned her instructor for related reasons to a speculation as to Rob's potential suspension. YOU mentioned another, for unrelated reasons.

I will say, this epic attack you've mounted against people not even remotely involved with your hero's demise is really getting old. I'm sick of it. You've mounted a concerted effort, it shows. It's petty, and it's not who I thought you were. Honestly, Eric, I thought bigger of you.