NACD Instructor standards violation

[cerich]

Rob is being accused of teaching Trimix to intro to cave divers.

.

there are tons of folks that have Trimix, adv Trimix, Helitrox, Heliair, Rec Trimix, Normoxic Tmix and whatever else Trimix can/is called by the various agencies that don't have cave certs.

Is the issue that Rob was allegedly teaching a Tmix class to folks that weren't full cave? If so...so what? Is the issue that he was allegedly teaching Tmix in LOG to divers that weren't qualified to dive LOG?

 

[Wookie]

You really think Rick is embarrassing the NACD? What, exactly, has he said that's damaging? If anything, he's offered a glimmer of hope that someone actually cares.

Rob is being accused of teaching Trimix to intro to cave divers.

It would only be embarrassing because it's dragged on for so long. If we are discussing the same event, it happened what, 2 years ago, long before RN was TD, therefore even the most casual observer would assume it was even brought up for purely political reasons. Then, how long does it really take to investigate this? "Rob, What happened?" "Complainant, What happened?" "Witness, what did you see?". If the witness corroborates the accused story, it's over. If the witness corroborates the complainants story, it's over. If there is no witness, it becomes a "He said - She said" and with a letter in a file somewhere that none of us ever hear about, it's over. If Rob wants to bring it up himself later (Like Jim Wyatt did), he is welcome to do so. I think an investigation like that should take.... oh, maybe 20 minutes. This is damaging to NACD because it's dragged on for over a week.

Are you SURE Rob is accused of teaching Trimix to intro to cave divers? Would you bet a thousand bucks that it isn't something else?

---------- Post added April 23rd, 2015 at 11:28 AM ----------

there are tons of folks that have Trimix, adv Trimix, Helitrox, Heliair, Rec Trimix, Normoxic Tmix and whatever else Trimix can/is called by the various agencies that don't have cave certs.

Is the issue that Rob was allegedly teaching a Tmix class to folks that weren't full cave? If so...so what? Is the issue that he was allegedly teaching Tmix in LOG to divers that weren't qualified to dive LOG?

I was there when RN became a trimix instructor. It didn't happen in a cave. I am a trimix diver, I've never been in a cave, dever even looked sideways at one. Fresh water is for mixing with your crappy bourbon.

 

[LiteHedded]

It would only be embarrassing because it's dragged on for so long. If we are discussing the same event, it happened what, 2 years ago, long before RN was TD, therefore even the most casual observer would assume it was even brought up for purely political reasons. Then, how long does it really take to investigate this? "Rob, What happened?" "Complainant, What happened?" "Witness, what did you see?". If the witness corroborates the accused story, it's over. If the witness corroborates the complainants story, it's over. If there is no witness, it becomes a "He said - She said" and with a letter in a file somewhere that none of us ever hear about, it's over. If Rob wants to bring it up himself later (Like Jim Wyatt did), he is welcome to do so. I think an investigation like that should take.... oh, maybe 20 minutes. This is damaging to NACD because it's dragged on for over a week.

Are you SURE Rob is accused of teaching Trimix to intro to cave divers? Would you bet a thousand bucks that it isn't something else?

wasn't it brought up to an entirely different agency two years ago?
it just seems like he taught at LOG because his cronies are here saying how it's fine and no big deal and not really that small. instead of 'no he never did that'

 

[Wookie]

wasn't it brought up to an entirely different agency two years ago?
it just seems like he taught at LOG because his cronies are here saying how it's fine and no big deal and not really that small. instead of 'no he never did that'

Going to assume that it would be like teaching trimix to non-cave students at Eagles Nest "in the natural light zone" above the cone. It isn't a cave because it's a cave, it's a cave because ingress and egress is through a narrow chimney.

What if he taught Trimix on a wreck? To non-advanced wreck divers? Would there be the same level of angst? I take folks for their trimix classes on the Oriskany or Vandenberg all the time.

 

[LiteHedded]

Going to assume that it would be like teaching trimix to non-cave students at Eagles Nest "in the natural light zone" above the cone. It isn't a cave because it's a cave, it's a cave because ingress and egress is through a narrow chimney.

What if he taught Trimix on a wreck? To non-advanced wreck divers? Would there be the same level of angst? I take folks for their trimix classes on the Oriskany or Vandenberg all the time.

no not at all. the problem with this site is that A: it's a state park, so stuff like this puts a lot of us on edge. and number 2: an intro diver is ABSOLUTELY not qualified to be doing this dive.
if this is all true, then it's a huge deal in my mind because if your instructor is ok with bending rules like this during your training, you're probably going to think it's fine and carry on behaving like this later in your diving career and do something stupid.

also, if he wasn't the training director of a cave agency and super popular up there it wouldn't be a huge deal either

 

[victorzamora]

He has made the organization a laughing stock by claiming to step forward and save the world of cave instruction, with all of that blowing up in his face.
First he loses three of his board members, we can only speculate why that happened with the resignation letters being confidential.
Now the suspension fiasco.

Rick, I will say this in public since that's what you seem to like so much. Please do the membership of the NACD one last favor.
Don't run the organization completely into the ground, step back from your BoD post and let someone else clean up the mess.

The NACD has been a laughing stock for a while. How long have "fiascos" been going on inside the NACD? Drug convictions ignored, blatant cronyism, musical-chairs in the Top3 spots....I could go on. I'm relatively new to the world of cave diving, but since I've been in it the NACD has not been very well respected and hadn't been for a while. This seemed a common theme. Heck, they don't recognize Trimix or CCR and they're really not pro-SM. You said it yourself, they're really behind the times.

You really think Rick is embarrassing the NACD? What, exactly, has he said that's damaging? If anything, he's offered a glimmer of hope that someone actually cares.
I'm pretty confident if the story was fabricated that both of you would be the first to call it out as such. Rather than tiptoe around it, would you mind at least confirming or denying that you have knowledge that Rob taught intro divers trimix in lower OG?

I told Rick via PM when the big thread first started that I was really hoping he meant what he was saying and that I was excited about the prospects of him cleaning up. I told Oliver via Facebook repeatedly last night that I have gained a glimmer of hope from this. Heck, I think I've posted that on a few different threads! Cleaning house is needed in most agencies, and I'm glad Rick has started with his. I hope it sets a precedent!!

 

[Pavao]

Going to assume that it would be like teaching trimix to non-cave students at Eagles Nest "in the natural light zone" above the cone. It isn't a cave because it's a cave, it's a cave because ingress and egress is through a narrow chimney.

What if he taught Trimix on a wreck? To non-advanced wreck divers? Would there be the same level of angst? I take folks for their trimix classes on the Oriskany or Vandenberg all the time.

That's different Frank, you don't have to go inside the wreck to teach the class, that would make it teaching in an overhead environment, in the case of LOG, they would have to go inside the cave to reach the depth.

 

[tbone1004]

LOG is an issue because it isn't exactly the easiest place to get into or out of, this is very different than Eagles Nest.... LOG entrance is a restriction, no getting around that, without full cave it's an issue.

Now, again, I'm not saying that this is the issue that is being brought up, there could very well be other incidents that we aren't aware of, but the issue with that one is pretty clear if the facts are straight. I'm sure RN is either not allowed to or is wisely choosing not to disclose the information of the actual incident in question, and hopefully we will hear shortly what the actual results are.

 

[LiteHedded]

That's different Frank, you don't have to go inside the wreck to teach the class, that would make it teaching in an overhead environment, in the case of LOG, they would have to go inside the cave to reach the depth.

and past a restriction, which this student is not qualified for

 

[victorzamora]

there are tons of folks that have Trimix, adv Trimix, Helitrox, Heliair, Rec Trimix, Normoxic Tmix and whatever else Trimix can/is called by the various agencies that don't have cave certs.

Is the issue that Rob was allegedly teaching a Tmix class to folks that weren't full cave? If so...so what? Is the issue that he was allegedly teaching Tmix in LOG to divers that weren't qualified to dive LOG?

I was there when RN became a trimix instructor. It didn't happen in a cave. I am a trimix diver, I've never been in a cave, dever even looked sideways at one. Fresh water is for mixing with your crappy bourbon.

If this is what the investigation is regarding, it's not that he taught Trimix to a diver that simply lacked Full Cave training. Full Cave isn't a pre-req for ANY deco training. However, when certs specifically limit depth and explicitly state "No Decompression".....and someone takes you to them anyway, it's a violation of standards.

My understanding is that you're allowed to take a student one level beyond what they're certified to dive. An OW diver can be taken to a Cavern. A Cavern diver can do an Intro dive. An Intro diver can do an Apprentice dive. An Apprentice dive can do a Full Cave dive. OR, you take someone with no deco and do an AN/DP dive with them. However, taking an Intro diver well beyond those limits while exceeding other limits IS an issue. In the overhead, you must have Full Cave to be doing decompression dives.