NACD Instructor standards violation

[cerich]

How is that a violation if you're receiving trimix instruction?

It isn't.

 

[nakatomi]

So, you're stating that you did your Trimix training with Rob Neto. You're stating you did it in Lower Orange Grove. You're stating your Full Cave cert card certifies you to a MAX DEPTH of 130ft, which you violated. To me, that's a violation.

The fact that it's Full Cave, though, makes it better. At Intro, you're also explicitly limited to no decompression. Period. Besides any potentially specific loop-hole verbiage, it's pretty clear that a dive to LOG with an Intro Diver on Trimix is well beyond the intent of that certification level.

Yeah, I guess that makes me part of the problem then?
Please do tell me how I could ever have taken a trimix class with that dreadful 130' stamp in my IANTD c-card?

And please do tell me, where does it state that the IANTD intro level does not allow decompression?
It's not in my version of the standards.

 

[victorzamora]

Yeah, I guess that makes me part of the problem then?
Please do tell me how I could ever have taken a trimix class with that dreadful 130' stamp in my IANTD c-card?

By not doing it in the overhead.

And please do tell me, where does it state that the IANTD intro level does not allow decompression?
It's not in my version of the standards.

You have me at a disadvantage, the IANTD site isn't up. However, my IANTD Intro Cave card VERY explicitly states No Decompression. If I can remember to, I'll post a picture of it tonight.

---------- Post added April 23rd, 2015 at 03:36 PM ----------

How is that a violation if you're receiving trimix instruction?

Simple: The fact that you're in a physical overhead. This is my understanding through my research of calling agencies and explicitly asking them regarding MY future Trimix training (I've been getting violently sea-sick on boats the past few years and I'm not sure why).

 

[nakatomi]

By not doing it in the overhead.

Jesus Victor, you just made that rule up.
Where does it say you can't do the trimix class in an overhead. WTH?
People do it all the time.

You have me at a disadvantage, the IANTD site isn't up. However, my IANTD Intro Cave card VERY explicitly states No Decompression. If I can remember to, I'll post a picture of it tonight.

Well mine doesn't. And the standards clearly state decompression is allowed. I sent them to you on FB. Now what?

Go ask Tom Mount about all this, it's getting ridiculous.
---------- Post added April 23rd, 2015 at 03:36 PM ----------

Simple: The fact that you're in a physical overhead. This is my understanding through my research of calling agencies and explicitly asking them regarding MY future Trimix training (I've been getting violently sea-sick on boats the past few years and I'm not sure why).

Again, check the standards or ask Tom. I asked him before and got great answers.
Normally I would recommend another instructor who knows his rules and standards, but I assume you'd be reluctant to call him.

 

[Hetland]

The fact that you're in a physical overhead. This is my understanding through my research of calling agencies and explicitly asking them regarding MY future Trimix training (I've been getting violently sea-sick on boats the past few years and I'm not sure why).

I think that you are mistaken here. AFAIK, there's no requirement that you have a trimix cert from open water prior to busting 130ft in a cave. In other words, it's appropriate for a Full Cave diver to receive trimix training in an overhead environment that exceeds 130ft. Otherwise the legion of cave divers who avoid boats (for the same reason as you), AND have trimix certs, wouldn't have those cards ;-)

 

[bamafan]

Victor you can do your mix training in the Ballroom at Eagle's Nest. I was told your instructor got permission to teach OW divers deco classes in there. People are blowing this all out of proportion. Does anyone seriously think that any training agency who issues their highest cave card would mean that you can't dive over 130'. I agree it should be 130' END but if you have a mix card or are in a deco / mix class that depth limit overules the other. In my opinion the card with the deepest depth limit is the controling factor not the other way around.

 

[TracyN]

I have a question. When I was doing my trimix training at EN there was an instructor taking a cavern trained student down into the ballroom to do an AN/DP class. I thought that you had to be cave certified in order to dive EN or to undergo any training there?

 

[boulderjohn]

If you go into the Instructor to Instructor forum, you will frequently find threads in which people ask for explanations of agency standards. They can get argumentative. When they get argumentative about PADI standards, I quickly write to PADI with the question and get an official response pretty quickly. That pretty much ends the thread.

Has anyone thought of doing that with the agencies involved here? It might be helpful.

 

[victorzamora]

Jesus Victor, you just made that rule up.
Where does it say you can't do the trimix class in an overhead. WTH?
People do it all the time.

I'm not making anything up. I'm simply relaying what I understood was the case through trying to research for my own Trimix training.

Normally I would recommend another instructor who knows his rules and standards, but I assume you'd be reluctant to call him.

Wait, the one that is currently being investigated for a standards violation?

I think that you are mistaken here. AFAIK, there's no requirement that you have a trimix cert from open water prior to busting 130ft in a cave. In other words, it's appropriate for a Full Cave diver to receive trimix training in an overhead environment that exceeds 130ft. Otherwise the legion of cave divers who avoid boats (for the same reason as you), AND have trimix certs, wouldn't have those cards ;-)

I'm not saying there is for all agencies. What I'm saying is that my understanding from speaking to more than one agency while researching for my Trimix training was that there were some hoops that had to be jumped through to allow me, as a Full Cave diver that also met all of the other pre-requisites, to do my Trimix training in an overhead environment. An Intro Diver, if I understood them correctly, would NOT be allowed to do Trimix training in an overhead environment, period. Heck, my efforts to get AN/DP certified in an overhead involved some pretty serious hoop-jumping. My instructor went to the agency a couple of times to make sure that all standards were met.

Victor you can do your mix training in the Ballroom at Eagle's Nest. I was told your instructor got permission to teach OW divers deco classes in there. People are blowing this all out of proportion. Does anyone seriously think that any training agency who issues their highest cave card would mean that you can't dive over 130'. I agree it should be 130' END but if you have a mix card or are in a deco / mix class that depth limit overules the other. In my opinion the card with the deepest depth limit is the controling factor not the other way around.

Yeah, my understanding is that there is a written exception specifically for that site....but I'm not even sure what agency (agencies?) that's through. As for END, I believe it's the FAR superior nomenclature for a Full Cave card's limits. Of course, this requires an agency to be aware of the existence of Helium.
As for what trumps what, I agree that "Deepest Cert" should hold top-trumps, but my understanding from the verbiage is that in a physical overhead that's not the cut-and-dry case. I don't get it, and I'm not saying I like it....but it's what I've come to understand.

---------- Post added April 23rd, 2015 at 04:15 PM ----------

Has anyone thought of doing that with the agencies involved here? It might be helpful.

I've called twice and gotten voicemail.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Any level of advanced diver training should never be conducted in a cave unless the student is certified as a full cave diver, not intro, not basic, not apprentice.

No diver should be trained at Eagles' Nest for anything unless that student is already certified as a full cave diver. Training an intro or basic cave diver at Eagles' Nest is not appropriate, nor is it wise. There is no section of Eagles' Nest that is a cavern.

When choosing a site to train a full cave diver in a cave, the cave configuration and complexity must be a high priority consideration by the instructor. I can not imagine a circumstance when it would be appropriate to even train a full cave diver in Lower Orange Grove. The configuration of that cave is not conducive to the instructor having proper control of the student. The only exception would be an advanced cave sidemount training course where the cave diver student has sufficient experience sidemount diving in a cave and of course the instructor being an advanced cave sidemount instructor.

Choosing LOG for trimix training even for a full cave diver is suspect and I think not appropriate. I know it is done, but I think it is done for convenience sake rather than as a good place for conducting this type training.

FWIW I would never consider LOG a proper/appropriate cave for any type training aside from advanced cave sidemount. I am not certified nor am I qualified to teach that class so I choose to not use it, even though for logistics and convenience purposes I have been tempted.