NACD Instructor standards violation

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If you go into the Instructor to Instructor forum, you will frequently find threads in which people ask for explanations of agency standards. They can get argumentative. When they get argumentative about PADI standards, I quickly write to PADI with the question and get an official response pretty quickly. That pretty much ends the thread.

Has anyone thought of doing that with the agencies involved here? It might be helpful.

No that would take all the fun out of it. Why do that when everyone can just accuse the other of breaking standards. Heck I don't have an advanced sidemount card but I keep getting told that the dives I do are advanced sidemount dives and don't tell anyone how to get there because they will die. I think people are getting way to hung up on this crap. This is just diving a little common sense and being able to stay calm and think through the problem goes a long way. Personally I think divers need to be exposed to tougher conditions in training. Getting use to squeezing through small stuff or having to swim back through a tunnel that is blown is better done in a class with a good instructor instead of how I did it. I have made mistakes and had crap happen such as getting my line cut and having to go a good ways through a nasty sidemount passage to find it again. Maybe this is why the divers we see and fuss about everyday are so bad. To them the Grand Traverse or swimming through the Hinkle is
an extreme dive. People need to get a grip and go diving and if you don't push your comfort level on about every dive some where will you be in the future? Dreaming about maybe one day seeing the stroke arrow in Jb? Go grab a couple stages and go. WTF?
 
... the cave configuration and complexity must be a high priority consideration by the instructor. I can not imagine a circumstance when it would be appropriate to even train a full cave diver in Lower Orange Grove. The configuration of that cave is not conducive to the instructor having proper control of the student.

Maybe delete the previous 8 pages of back-and-forth and replace them with this?
 
Bamafan, little translation for the cave impaired: stroke arrow? I know what both are separately, but together?
 
I am not a cave instructor, but I am a technical diving instructor. The issue of how hard to make things for students during their training is very real for me. In my own technical training, I was put into a lot of tough situations, and I benefited from that training. On the other hand, as an instructor, I am not so eager to give my students that benefit. Let me give an example to explain why.

In one of my training dives, my dive buddy was put out of air by the instructor. The instructor always did that by shutting off the air to make it realistic, so my buddy had to come to me for air for real. I donated my long hose and switched to my alternate. Nothing. I instantly realized that my instructor had shut off my left post to simulate a left post roll off, an event for which we had received neither instruction nor briefing. He liked to throw surprises at us to make us think. I reached back, opened my left post, and all was well. Good training, right?

Several months later the same instructor performed the exact same sequence with another pair of students. This time it did not go so well. When he got no air from his alternate, the student panicked and bolted to the surface, ripping the donated hose out of the mouth of the buddy with the air shut off. Everything turned out OK, but it could just as easily have resulted in two dead students. In that case, the instructor would have had to make a case to a jury that what he did was a safe instructional practice within the generally accepted standards of scuba instruction. My guess is that it would not go well.

So maybe an intro to tech student should be able to get past a restriction before receiving instruction. But what if something goes wrong, an emergency exit is required, and the relatively untrained student is unable to navigate that restriction successfully during that exit? I would not like to be the instructor in the ensuing lawsuit.
 
The instructor always did that by shutting off the air to make it realistic

I typically keep a speargun at the surface for just this kind of thing.....AFTER I've punched him in the face underwater.
 
I started following this thread with interest due to the discussion about standards rather than any mudslinging against the NACD or Rob Neto. Having served on the board of directors of the RSTC, WRSTC, and several other organizations involved writing standards for, and in compliance with, industry standards and those of ANSI, ISO, NPFA, etc., I'd like to provide the following perspective to help instructors following this thread avoid possible standards violations with their organizations.

Standards for open water instruction using within any organization are often the best-written and most easily understood. For agencies that only teach cave diving the standards for cavern, intro to cave, apprentice cave diver, and cave diver are the best written and most easily understood. Technical standards are usually well-written, but once you add overhead and gases such as nitrox, heliox, or a trimix you might find yourself in a gray area. When you read any agency's diver level and professional level standards in their entirety you may discover vague interpretation and even contradictions.

For example, "a maximum depth of 130 feet," would mean exactly that. Even though the 5 Rules of Accident Analysis might say, "Never dive deeper than 130 feet on air or deeper than an END of 130 feet on mixed-gas," in that agency's textbook there is a difference between a standard for training for students and the knowledge they should have for diving after class. We see this often at the apprentice and full cave levels.

If the agency adds meters such as 130 feet/40 meters, now you can open yourself up to a potential issue. If you are using gauges that read in imperial and only go to a maximum depth of 130 feet in class there is no problem, but if you go to 132 feet one can argue that the standard allows for that since 40 meters equals 132 feet. The counter-argument is that the 40 meters standard was for a class conducted using metric gauges and if the class was working in imperial then that is a violation. While an instructor might believe he or she is utilizing "common sense" to interpret that standard it is best to qualify that with your agency's headquarters.

A standard for intro to cave may read, "with the gases for which the student has been trained." Now, one would think if the student was trimix certified you could use air, nitrox or trimix in class. For example, you could use 30/30 to 100 feet and remain within standards. But, elsewhere in the cave standards for an agency you may read, "no trimix training is to be conducted in an overhead environment without written authorization." Would teaching an intro to cave course on helium violate this standard? Are you conducting trimix training? Or, are you conducting cave training using trimix? Or, both? Again, it is best to contact the agency's headquarters and get verbal confirmation of the standard then ask for it in writing.

If you are an instructor with two agencies it is best to contact both organizations if you have a question about conducting combined training such as a cave level with a gas level or another course.

My TDI cave instructor taught me to stage at the apprentice level then we did the SDI solo class in caves in which I carried an AL80 as a buddy bottle rather than as a stage. Despite having extra gas on me and on my instructor as safety bottles, this concerned Sean Harrison because it was an SDI course. To be honest it was probably the best class I ever had in overhead, but my instructor got in trouble. He meant well and taught an excellent class, but violated standards. The worst part was I got him in trouble by speaking to Sean at a trade show to tell him what an excellent instructor I had for those classes.

Another standards problem encountered is when training standards differ from what the diver is certified to do upon completion of the class. For example, a C-card may read, "an END of 130 feet," like Victor pointed out earlier, but the course standard may read, "a maximum depth of 130 feet." When in doubt the instructor should follow the training standard unless being given written permission from headquarters. Verbal confirmation is nice, but can be denied later if an accident happens. It is best to always get written confirmation. Trust, but verify.

In addition, instructors might violate standards if they fail to maintain physical fitness. What constitutes as fitness should also be verified. Professional conduct standards such as the use of foul-language, smoking in front of students, representing oneself or his/her organization on social media, or in public and such should also be verified with an agency. An instructor may question the safety or adequacy of the dive site or environmental conditions. In most agencies, training advice is just a phone call away. Only as instructors question standards do organizations become aware of the need to close loopholes and clarify safety and professional standards.
 
No that would take all the fun out of it. Why do that when everyone can just accuse the other of breaking standards. Heck I don't have an advanced sidemount card but I keep getting told that the dives I do are advanced sidemount dives and don't tell anyone how to get there because they will die. I think people are getting way to hung up on this crap. This is just diving a little common sense and being able to stay calm and think through the problem goes a long way. Personally I think divers need to be exposed to tougher conditions in training. Getting use to squeezing through small stuff or having to swim back through a tunnel that is blown is better done in a class with a good instructor instead of how I did it. I have made mistakes and had crap happen such as getting my line cut and having to go a good ways through a nasty sidemount passage to find it again. Maybe this is why the divers we see and fuss about everyday are so bad. To them the Grand Traverse or swimming through the Hinkle is
an extreme dive. People need to get a grip and go diving and if you don't push your comfort level on about every dive some where will you be in the future? Dreaming about maybe one day seeing the stroke arrow in Jb? Go grab a couple stages and go. WTF?

Out of curiosity, buit a serious question, and maybe a bit of a statement. Advanced Sidemount? Sidemount is a gear configuration. Is there an advanced no harness DPV certification? How about an advanced drysuit cave certification. Goes somewhere beyond recreational drysuit cave certification or reasonably beyond technical drysuit cave certification.

Maybe I'm stupid, but if a diver has full cave cert, is there something beyond this? Is there an advanced full cave cert? Is there a technical full cave cert? If a diver has full cave, and trimix cert, do they need a full cave advanced technical recreational super duper trimix something or another? Who and where do you check in with the scuba police? If I go to Cave Adventures or Cave Excursions with my trimix card and get my doubles filled, is someone there going to ask me if I'm diving the Oriskany or a cave?

Jim brought up that he feels that Lower Orange Grove is inappropriate for conducting trimix class to a cave diver. I will defer to his expertise and experience, as I'm still not a cave diver nor an active instructor, but inappropriate isn't necessarily a violation of standards. Inappropriate is "instructor A wouldn't do it, but instructor B is willing to take the risk". I was an active instructor for many years, and every class we teach has some level of risk. An acceptable level of risk is different for every individual.

So, as more of the story comes to light, it seems that the student was full cave, and not intro. It seems that Jim and maybe others think that Rob did something inappropriate, but hell, I do inappropriate things all the time. NACD has Rob suspended, and we don't know why.

I'm sorry I contributed to 17 pages of "Nothing to see here, move along, move along"
 
I am not a cave instructor, but I am a technical diving instructor. The issue of how hard to make things for students during their training is very real for me. In my own technical training, I was put into a lot of tough situations, and I benefited from that training. On the other hand, as an instructor, I am not so eager to give my students that benefit. Let me give an example to explain why.

In one of my training dives, my dive buddy was put out of air by the instructor. The instructor always did that by shutting off the air to make it realistic, so my buddy had to come to me for air for real. I donated my long hose and switched to my alternate. Nothing. I instantly realized that my instructor had shut off my left post to simulate a left post roll off, an event for which we had received neither instruction nor briefing. He liked to throw surprises at us to make us think. I reached back, opened my left post, and all was well. Good training, right?

Several months later the same instructor performed the exact same sequence with another pair of students. This time it did not go so well. When he got no air from his alternate, the student panicked and bolted to the surface, ripping the donated hose out of the mouth of the buddy with the air shut off. Everything turned out OK, but it could just as easily have resulted in two dead students. In that case, the instructor would have had to make a case to a jury that what he did was a safe instructional practice within the generally accepted standards of scuba instruction. My guess is that it would not go well.

So maybe an intro to tech student should be able to get past a restriction before receiving instruction. But what if something goes wrong, an emergency exit is required, and the relatively untrained student is unable to navigate that restriction successfully during that exit? I would not like to be the instructor in the ensuing lawsuit.

I agree, I think training is a place to simulate problems without real danger so that students can practice the proven procedures and develop muscle memory. For most students, an instructor isn't going to be able to simulate the anxiety of a real situation anyway.

I am reminded of a story Edd Sorenson told in a presentation. An instructor had lost two students in a cave, and exited pretty much panicked. Edd went in and was able to both find and return both students to the surface safely (although low on gas). Edd was puzzled by one student's apparent calmness after the ordeal, so asked the student why they were so calm. The answer the student gave was "I thought this was all part of the class".
 
Wookie:

Risk management is the real issue here. Risk management is managing risk for the student (duh) the legal and perhaps moral test is: "What would the reasonably prudent cave instructor do"? Would the reasonably prudent cave instructor take a partially cave trained student into a cave that is deeper than 130 feet with a restriction and the likelihood of silting out and causing zero visibility, thereby losing control? Would that prudent cave instructor choose a cave with this configuration to train someone in?

My thinking is that a jury of our peers, who will certainly not be composed of cave instructors, nor most likely even a diver will say it is not prudent :no:.

The plaintiffs' attorney might ask his expert witness "Was there a better place to conduct this training?" Is there a better place where the instructor could exercise more control over the students, and make the dive safer? Any half-decent attorney could identify and qualify an expert witness who would say "yes" there are better, safer places. At this point it becomes a no-brainer.
 

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